To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

I’ll take your job op no worries and you can go back to the private sector with your tin hat 🤣 sister in law is in the same boat - the vaccine will stop her having babies apparently - and I have zero sympathy. It is a condition of work just like having a negative mrsa swap. Stop reading social media and start getting facts from respected medical sites.

I'm nhs. I don't want the vaccine. I've been exposed so many times and not had it. But it will become mandatory I feel and then unfortunately I have to look at my choices. I don't agree with the ethics of enforced vaccination of a new vaccine.
However if I lose my job, I'm fucked anyway. I don't have a choice. I have to provide for my children. So I will have to have it.

@SarahBop

Honestly I am saddened that people think this is okay/acceptable.

You honestly think someone should lose their rights to body autonomy? You think someone should lose their freedoms/human rights/a job they're good at and passionate about because they refuse to undergo a medical procedure? Really?

Bear in mind the government make millions of pounds in profit from selling this drug....do they really have peoples safety as a first priority??

OP isn't losing their right to bodily autonomy. They're losing the ability to work for a specific employer due to their new employment requirement. Nobody is holding her down and forcing her to get the vaccine.

I would defend with everything I had a person's right to do whay they want with their body. I also think it's right that employers, given new information, should be allowed to update what they require of their staff.

I've worked in a role where hepatitis jabs were a requirement. I was free not to have them, but if I wanted the job, I had to have it. This is no different.

I'm sure there will be some test cases where longstanding employees refuse to abide by new rules, and it'll be interesting to see where the law falls on change of contract. But morally, I don't think the employers are doing anything wrong at all. OP has plenty of notice and I presume they will have allowances for those unable to have the jabs due to medical reasons (as they did in my previous job).

I don't understand why people don't want the vaccine. At all.

Millions upon millions have had it. Here. And across the world a truly huge number.

I don't buy the no because feels govt undermining autonomy.

My feel is it's a personal risk assessment. Which says. Covid prob wont be too bad for me/ prob had anyway. Vs irrational fear of preventative jab.

No idea why anyone funny about vaccines but it's a real thing.

Just don't understand.

Not having a go just don't get it and can't put self in shoes of those who don't want.

I love a bit of science and medicine and think vaccines just incredible so obv going to be hard to understand.

[quote LMonkey]**@Fireworksatforty

Oh.my.god. This is what I mean. How are people ignoring stuff like this and insisting we should all take it?? Possible heart damage. Jeez. I wouldn't even get past the consent form, because I would want to make sure someone is liable if the worst happened.
Wow. Good luck to you finding something else, and I hope you feel better (mentally and physically) very, very soon[/quote]
You've read the risks for everyday things things like paracetamol I assume?

[quote moregarlic]@LMonkey in my experience, mumsnet is rife with people with very extreme views about covid. Other than a few very elderly relatives, I haven’t come across any of the hysteria that’s regular on here in real life. Most people are just getting on with their lives. And I honestly believe most people would be on your side. I hope this thread hasn’t got you down ❤️[/quote]
Totally agree with you..

@pointythings

Clementineapples for the last time - the COVID vaccine has been through the exact same processes as any other vaccine or medication. The speed with which this has been achieved has been because of 1) unlimited funding, eliminating the usual delays in starting the next stage, 2) streamlining and prioritising the usual permissions process and staffing constraints, 3) international cooperation and 4) existing work on vaccines for SARS and MERS used as a platform, so this work did not start from scratch.

All the above points have been known about. The fact that you choose not to believe them is your problem - you choose not to trust science.
Research safeguarding is very, very different from the way it was in the time that Thalidomide was approved. In addition, in those days the Internet did not exist, and access to data was very limited. The fact that you continue to describe the Thalidomide situation as relevant just tells me you require education in how science works in 2021.

But ultimately this is about choices and consequences. OP is making a choice and that choice has consequences.

I know a lot of young people (vaccinated) who would love to move into NHS admin posts. They'll be filled.

Yes there are people que'ing up for jobs they'll be no problem

We've just advertised 2 band 2 positions, and a band 3 and had over 300 applications for each post

[quote moregarlic] Maybe you should do a little reading about how research works in terms of ethics, prioritising patient safety and the various testing stages and what they mean.

Maybe you should @pointythings

www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635[/quote]
Research govTernance in the US is very different from research governance in the UK, moregarlic. I'm surprised you don't know that.

I worked in research for almost 13 years and one of the things I did was monitor adherence to process at the location where I worked. I'm still in the same Trust, and it was one of the test sites for the AZ vaccine. What some randoms in Texas do isn't relevant to me - what I have faith in is how things are done here.

[quote Fireworksatforty]@LMonkey yep. Being told that "there's little to no chance of such a reaction the second time so I NEED to have it." How they know this for certain is anyones guess. I'm not being pressured into it. It's worrying that they're so insistent tbh. Is there not a clause in the consent form we have to sign that absolves anyone else of responsibility in the event of vaccine injury or death? I can't remember, anyway, I've had covid as well as the horrific reaction to the first vaccine which has led to possible heart damage, it's not clear yet. So I'm not risking another dose. I'll have to find another job. I'm having sleepless nights and and am now on anti depressants because of it. It's shit. [/quote]
It's disgraceful that you are being pressured like this and I'm so sorry to hear how stressed out and unhappy it's making you. Just wanted to let you know that there are people out here who are100% on your side but are scared to speak up in case they too get bombarded with insults and aggression. The press have relentlessly fuelled this division between the vaccinated and unvaccinated and unfortunately some people seem completely blind to this and feel empowered to force their views on others, regardless of how that makes them feel. Hang on in there and things will get better again. You are not alone. Xx

The other point that may have been mentioned is that if vaccinated and you catch covid you are less likely to get as ill and need hospital treatment.

Doesn't matter if you're not patient facing. What if a colleague passes covid onto you who has been vaxxed then you need months off. Who's doing your work at work. Or do we just tell the public that waiting lists are up again because all the behind the scenes people that keep the NHS moving are off with covid?

The government have already done a consultation process asking the public for views on if the vaccine should be compulsory for all healthcare employees. I presume those results are now being processed and will be used as a case for change to existing contracts. All they need to do is give 90 days notice to change of contracts.

I really can't see the problem with having it. I've had my booster so I've had three shots of vaccine now. Not a single side effect. The vaccine will help get rid of mask wearing too which inadvertently has caused us all to loose immunity to common colds and sickness bugs which is now what staff in the NHS are off with.

Thank you @nojudgementhere and @LMonkey

A lot of my medical colleagues are horrified that I'm in this position and fully agree with me but it's not up to them, it's up to the government. If the government say there is "no increased risk" for me to have the rest of the course I have to have it or lose my job and no GP will sign any exemption paperwork.

@myheartskippedabeat

Would you be saying the same thing to doctors, nurses, specialists, consultants, etc who don’t want it either? Will all those roles be filled if they walk out?

@MrsPear

I’ll take your job op no worries and you can go back to the private sector with your tin hat 🤣 sister in law is in the same boat - the vaccine will stop her having babies apparently - and I have zero sympathy. It is a condition of work just like having a negative mrsa swap. Stop reading social media and start getting facts from respected medical sites.

You have zero sympathy for your sister in law who would like to have a baby but is worried that a brand new vaccine (which has been known to cause bleeding in women) is going to make her infertile?? Then shame on you. You actually think any woman should risk her fertility for the sake of a job? I hope she cuts you out of her life for her sanity.

@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea

The thing is, you're not being forced. You're being told that to continue working for that company you need to be vaccinated. So you are free to leave and remain unvaccinated if you want.

When I worked on cruise ships I had to have a whole host of vaccines before I could join the ship. If I refused I wouldn't have been able to work there.

Exactly

@NiceGerbil
I've already addressed the point about taking paracetamol / ibuprofen.
Realy glad you're totally OK with having the vaccine, but I think perhaps if you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes there's very little point in posting on here? There's already been a lot of agro. I think the pro-vaxxers have really gone to town on making their point!!

[quote LMonkey]**@NiceGerbil
I've already addressed the point about taking paracetamol / ibuprofen.
Realy glad you're totally OK with having the vaccine, but I think perhaps if you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes there's very little point in posting on here? There's already been a lot of agro. I think the pro-vaxxers have really gone to town on making their point!![/quote]
Op, I think you’re still missing the point, it’s not the “pro Vaxxers went to town” it’s 90 percent of the population are vaccinated, so you’d expect 90 percent of the responses to be pro vaccine. Of the remaining ten percent many of them will be medically exempt. The amount of people in your category, who are either too scared or believe the conspiracy theories is statistically tiny.

Statistically you were never going to ask the general public and receive lots of support from people like you. You need to go on a dedicated site where the anti vaxxers go.

@LMonkey have you ignored the articles I posted below which address your concerns re myocarditis and blood clots?
It's your choice not to have it, but sadly that has a huge consequence for you. It's very hard so be sympathetic when your posts show a lack of understanding and a reliance on unscientific misinformation.

@LMonkey and you say "the pro-vaxxers have really gone to town in making their point".
Meaning - lots of posters have provided information that should help address your fears and put risks of vaccination into context. I'm not sure that you've provided robust info for your side to back up your concerns, that just lots of "but what if..."

Also op, when I say you need to go to the sites the anti vaxxers go, I think it’s clear from your language, that you are familiar with those sites and have been internalising what you’ve been reading.

The concern is you felt your view was main stream enough thay you thought coming onto a normal site that you’d find many others like you, thag was never going to be the case,

Which makes me wonder if you are rather isolated in real life? Maybe work, possibly home and then no friendship circle? Because if you had a social circle you’d have known that you’re views were in the minority and some of them actually extreme Ie the whole sheep thing and bill gates some how being involved.

As the thread has gone on, I wonder if your willingness to believe mad conspiracy theories is actually due to an innate fear of getting th vaccine and a health anxiety? And these mad conspiracies have simply fed that anxiety?

@Jiggeryjaggerywoo
Yes actually I did read them very late last night. Thanks for providing them.
It is reassuring to read articles like that, however doesn't reassure me entirely and still really missing my point that vaccines should not be mandatory.

It's unhelpful and pointless to divide people into 'pro vax' or anti vax.

The idea that one is morally or intellectually superior for having one or the other stance helps nobody.

What people need is clear information, and the freedom to make their own choices. Manipulating or brow beating or guilting or coercing people is not going to work.

@Bluntness100

Also op, when I say you need to go to the sites the anti vaxxers go, I think it’s clear from your language, that you are familiar with those sites and have been internalising what you’ve been reading.

The concern is you felt your view was main stream enough thay you thought coming onto a normal site that you’d find many others like you, thag was never going to be the case,

Which makes me wonder if you are rather isolated in real life? Maybe work, possibly home and then no friendship circle? Because if you had a social circle you’d have known that you’re views were in the minority and some of them actually extreme Ie the whole sheep thing and bill gates some how being involved.

Clearly you are being extremely passive aggressive. I'm not isolated in real life. I have my kids and partner living with me. My friendship circle feel the same as me regarding the vaccine, however only one of those people is a med sec and in the same boat as me. One side of my family have just gone along with what they've been told to do and had the vaccine, but I must say aren't particularly judgemental on my choices or pushy. The other side Yes, are very into the conspiracy theories. As I have repeated, I am not on social media, but have read articles that have been sent to me by family. I am off now as people saying extremely unkind and unfounded things like this (who have an absolute failure as a human being to see anything from anyones elses perspective but their own) is really starting to take its toll, but I guess that's what you were aiming for! Bullies in the playground.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/pushing-back-tackling-the-anti-vax-movement