Help my adult son is being bullied at work.

[Shehasadiamondinthesky]

I feel so helpless, I can't go round there and knock her lights out as he's an adult but my motherly instinct to protect him is strong.
He's worked in a government office for 12 years, always had great performance reviews but he does have a history of mental illness that so far has been controlled very well, there was a very serious suicide attempt 14 years ago but somehow he survived.
Roll on the last few months he has a new female manager, young inexperienced, lots of red flags with regard to her behaviour and things she says about other employees, really unprofessional things. She sounds like a total sociopath.
She has bullied him so badly he is suicidal again, she says occupational health can overturn his doctors letter saying he is not fit for work, that he has to call her once a week for a two hour frilling on his performance and if he is unable to finish due to distress they have to continue the next day.
He is seriously mentally ill and just can't cope with his, he is on the phone every night saying he can't cope any more.
Like every seasoned sociopath she is seen to send him sympathetic emails but says she doesn't give him permission to record these interviews, that he cannot have anyone with him, he must be alone when she calls and I can see he is slowly losing his mind.
I don't know what to do or how to help him, surely she can't be allowed to fire questions at him for 2 hours while he is ill like this, he can barely remember his own name.
Does anyone know what the legal stance is on this.
She tells HR that she is "helping" him, she isn't. I listened into to one of these conversations and it was awful that a mentally ill person would have to go through this.
i just don't know what to do, it's distressing for the whole family and we are so worried about him.

Two hours?!

Dane8 I wondered if it was HMRC, I'm an ex employee & there were several managers exactly like this one, I was unfortunate enough to work for one & it nearly finished me off, I was off sick for just over a year before they finished me, I had 4 major operations in 9 months, my marriage had ended & I had been abused by my then husband. I attempted suicide several times, my manager even rang me hours after I came out of theatre to ask me when I would be back at work. I was lucky in having a union rep who took no crap & fought for me to have full severance & get my ill health pension.

@dane8

It’s not the tax office is it ?

Dp got exactly the same from his line manager, she was a bitch.
Lucky for him in a way he had been there 39 yrs

He had a battle on his hands with her, he walked out from work one night came home and said
I can’t go back in that office again
Worked there for 39 yrs , been under her for 2 yrs and was a wreck and eventually left
But
Waited it out and went On early retirement

Or Capita because they are horrendous to work for.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

She's been telling him she can get OH to overturn his sickness certificate so he won't be paid. This can't be right? or even legal. He knows he has to check in with his manager once a week but that's all that should be, a checking in and a how are you not a two hour grilling.

OH can't over turn a fit note. Get him to ask for an absence policy. There there be a process. OH can advise on return to work and long term fitness to work and can help an employer dismiss on capacity. They can't in the short term decide he is fit to work therefore take him off sick and on unpaid leave.

A two hour call about anything each week is unacceptable. A well fair check up call of five mins fine. Any call about ability in role while on sick is unacceptable. The length of fit note should determine how often she calls. 2 week fit note, call at end of two weeks.

If he has a union call them. Get him to call HR with you there, he can then give them permission to talk with you if he doesn't feel up to discussing everything she has said/done.

While on the sick it is perfectly reasonable to have someone with you during meetings. So for her next call make sure you are there if you can. Hopefully HR will intervene before then.

Some really odd responses here. OP, this is why I would do: write a letter asking that all contact be through you, your son will need to give consent to this so get him to countersign. Ask for the grievance policy, sickness policy and bullying and harassment policy. Tell the employer that due to his disability (anxiety/ depression) it is a reasonable adjustment that all contact is through you and that he doesn't have "catch ups" anymore. Ask to have a discussion with HR and make clear that you will raise a grievance once he is well enough. Ask HR about the length of sick pay (usually 6 months) and what if any benefits are available post this.

I haven’t read all the posts so sorry if this has been suggested but I would email them (with your sons permission) and simply say he is too unwell to receive calls at the moment and you’ll be in touch with a doctors letter to confirm this ASAP. Email is better as there’s a paper trail and you won’t lose your cool. If your sons up for it get him to do it. I’d send it to the HR department but ask them to inform the manager.
Then get your son to speak to his gp to get said letter, again forward to HR. I’d also get him to say something along the lines of “I am happy to have check ins if needed however I am finding calls with “managers name” are becoming more performance based as opposed to discussing my time off. The length of these calls at nearly 2 hours a piece are straining my current mental health so I would request all future calls are from HR directly” I would get him to screenshot all phone call logs (go on call info and screenshot duration of calls) and try to get a paper trail of everything done to try and resolve this.
Long term, he needs a new job

Actually OH are the only people that can overturn a sick note. I went to a workshop and was surprised by this revelation. She is also right in that not any Tom, dick or Harry can attend their meetings. First thing tomorrow you need to get him a TU Rep. Having supported my husband through similar circumstances I saw how things got out of hand very quickly however the TU Rep was worth their weight in gold in navigating everyone through it.

Lots of advice on here but trying to summarise from a HR perspective:

Enhanced sick pay (that is, full pay whilst on sick leave) is typically discretionary and thus is is possible for OH to recommend not paying it. This is however extremely unlikely and I haven't seen a case where this has happened, particularly in large organisations. Statutory sick pay is a legal requirement and cannot be overturned.

Please do not call or email the business on your sons behalf. If he needs support, help him draft an email to HR that says something along the lines of "I am current signed off work for X and unfortunately struggling to cope with the content / intensity of keep in touch calls with my LM. I would like to request that these are with HR for the foreseeable. Im also happy to stay in touch by email". It's not unusual for HR to attend these calls nor is it unusual to agree to not call every week if someone is signed off long term.

Also support by calling ACAS with your son and getting formal advice. Keep track of all calls / emails the LM makes and sends. Speak to a Union but before signing up, check that a Union rep will support an ongoing absence case (some unions do not provide a rep for a case/issue that is already in progress - similar to insurance claims).

It's an awful situation - wishing you well!

Also if its Civil Service HR is a strategic function rather than one thst deals with the staff however he can request to deal with another manager.

Can everybody please take ALL of this with a hefty pinch of salt?

I am assuming that everything the OP is telling us is information she has obtained via her very mentally unwell son? His perception of things is going to be severely coloured by both his illness and the fact that he just isn’t happy in his job. It is impossible for any of us to know what the actual facts of this are when we’re getting a third-hand version of events via an emotionally-invested mum.

OP, don’t do ANYTHING on behalf of your son. Don’t. Keep out of it. He’s nearly 40. He may be unwell, but you sticking your oar in will not help him and would make it even more difficult for him to get back to work in his current role if he’s the guy whose mummy had to stick up for him. I think he just has to leave. I know getting another job is hard at the moment but can he really see himself going back to work at an organisation where he is clearly so unhappy?

For background - I was that ‘sociopathic’ manager to an employee with awful mental health problems once. Her mum interceded and the ‘facts’ that this mum had had from her very poorly daughter about what our actions were, what our intentions were, what meetings were about, were an utter fiction. If you squinted, you could see how the employee had skewed certain events to fit the narrative her illness (and her own awful performance prior to becoming ill) had created for her. It was a great relief to everyone when she quit and she is now thriving elsewhere.

To all those saying don't intervene, if the choice is intervene and prevent a further suicide attempt, or don't intervene as it's unprofessional, I know which I would go for. Of all the times to intervene, this is probably the only one, as it could be life or death.

OP if he's this unwell, I would have him come and live with you while he recovers, and quit his job. Assuming he's month to month on his rental, he can leave it. Is this not an option?

@arcof

To all those saying don't intervene, if the choice is intervene and prevent a further suicide attempt, or don't intervene as it's unprofessional, I know which I would go for. Of all the times to intervene, this is probably the only one, as it could be life or death.

OP if he's this unwell, I would have him come and live with you while he recovers, and quit his job. Assuming he's month to month on his rental, he can leave it. Is this not an option?

Intervene by all means with her son, personally by, as you say, supporting him with the practical fallout of quitting his job, recovering, keeping him safe until his suicidal thoughts pass then finding another job.

Intervening with his job via emails or phone calls on his behalf when the chances are she’s getting a very skewed and inaccurate version of events? No.

hi - just to check are you in the Uk? obv the situation is very different unfortunately if you are in the USA for example.

assuming you are UK:

does his sick note say work related stress?

is she calling him on his mobile? if so he can screenshot the call lengths and send this to HR - no reasonable person would expect
a well-being chat to be more than 10 min. esp. as work related and he does have the right to ask for another method of check in.

OH do not have right to overturn sick note and bring him back to work, BUT they can say that performance management meetings can continue if the sickness is related to stress from
performance management. But only when he is well enough to attend, which it sounds like your son is not at the moment. this may sound counter intuitive, but performance management is stressful, and sometimes getting through the first stage so the employee knows what is expected of them when they come back is an
important, but very unwelcome, part of recovery.

my experience from working in HR and management and as an employee
who has been poorly is that OH are normally very employee centric and will give recommendations which are aimed at
getting the employee back to work in a supportive way. particularly in civil service.

It is great for you to go down and support your son - you can give him practical support
by helping him draft emails. my tip
would be

1. take anything personal out about manager beyond "her actions in these long calls are not being perceived as being focussed on wellbeing"
2. concerns about management style contributed significantly to mental health issues

the main thing to focus on is getting these calls to stop to give your son time to recover

i am really sorry to hear what you are
going through and hope you find this helpful

If he is struggling, you may need to take time off/get carers leave and advocate on his behalf.

I’ve known people in similar situations and a family member stepping in transformed the situation.

My tips:

-Get him to join a Union.
Ask whether they will help with an existing issue (my union rep said can help but for any future issues). Still worth joining as protection for future.

• Ask for all communication/catch ups to be in writing.

• Log every call/incident. Detail any unreasonable behaviour.

-Get legal advice. Solicitors do free surgeries/half hour, so do enquire.

• Speak to MIND. They have a Legal line that can help with such matters.

www.mind.org.uk/information-support/helplines/

Intervening with his job via emails or phone calls on his behalf when the chances are she’s getting a very skewed and inaccurate version of events? No.

Perhaps we should also assume that your version of events is ‘skewed’ because, as you say you were accused of being less than empathetic in the past yourself...? My point is that your posts are no more objective than anyone else’s.

@ShadesOfMagenta

You need to step in here and call the HR department and tell them what you’ve told us here.

If it was me I’d be calling and emailing this woman too & telling her to leave my son the fuck alone.

This. Please help him

@SugarbabyMilly

Intervening with his job via emails or phone calls on his behalf when the chances are she’s getting a very skewed and inaccurate version of events? No.

Perhaps we should also assume that your version of events is ‘skewed’ because, as you say you were accused of being less than empathetic in the past yourself...? My point is that your posts are no more objective than anyone else’s.

Everybody has different perspectives on things, Sugarbaby. Nobody can be truly objective. In my case, our employee had union, occ health and HR representation to the hilt, all of our processes were fully reviewed and the overwhelming opinion from everyone (including her union reps, HR, occ health) was that this employee could not see the wood for the trees because she was so unwell and unhappy with us. We were praised, in fact, for the over-and-above support we had given her. But you believe what you like.

And before anyone jumps in and says I’m accusing OP or her son of ‘lying’...when I was placed on suicide support many years ago by the CMHT, I firmly believed that going away for the weekend, or even sleeping, would result in my mother’s imminent death. Was I actively lying? No way. Was it the truth? Hell no. But mental ill-health is cruel and can create awful, intolerable ‘alternative facts’ that feel completely real and can be easily justified to those around you and the slightest thing can be twisted to prove to yourself that you’re not plunging into oblivion (when, in fact, you are).

Op I've been there. The boss is lying.
If he is off sick the only interaction needed is with HR or OCC health.and even then it's only at the point the sick note is extended.

He needs to temporarily block her number on his phone. He needs time and space.

You absolutely should call up the HR manager telling them what's really going on. Then follow that up with an email so they can't say they didn't know.

@ElphabaTheGreen this isn't about you and what happened in your workplace though is it? You can't dismiss someone else's problems because you've had your own experience. Unfortunately I've sat in too many cases like the one the OP is dealing with and some workplaces do not take mental health or grievances against managers seriously enough.

OP don't record the conversation between your son and his manager because unfortunately you won't be able to use it if she doesn't give permission due to data protection and GDPR. Definitely make notes of everything that's happened with times and dates if possible and it's never too late to join a union. There's also help available from ACAS and charities like Mind.

I sincerely hope your son gets the help he needs and he's lucky to have support from you. Don't forget that his employer has a duty of care to your son and obviously this is making him worse and not helping.

So sorry for what you and your son are going through. I once had a manager similar to this one. It was a nightmare. Everyone has given amazing advice here, hope it will all get sorted soon.

Take screen shots of the call log on his phone - it should detail the length abs frequency of the calls. I don't think anyone in HR would expect a keep in touch call to last 2 hours each week.

While you can't record the calls, and this she could lie about what's been said in them it will help prove that things aren't above board.

It's a government department and they are generally very good about employee's welfare, and that includes contact when on long term sick. It can be home visits, although obviously, because of Covid, those are now telephone catch ups etc.

The manager will not be acting on her own iniative, that's not how civil service hierarchies work.

It's a difficult situation, and the OP's son is clearly very sick, and the intervention isn't helping.

As the OP has said this is a condition that HR are presumably aware of, he needs to go through them to request an occupational health assessment. (Although there is a chance that this has already been done in the past) They are the people who will look at his situation, his sick note etc and say that the department interaction with him can and should continue, or not.

Presuming he is in one of the CS unions they can liaise for him. Much as the OP would like to, she really mustn't.

@Howzaboutye

Op I've been there. The boss is lying. If he is off sick the only interaction needed is with HR or OCC health.and even then it's only at the point the sick note is extended.

He needs to temporarily block her number on his phone. He needs time and space.

You absolutely should call up the HR manager telling them what's really going on. Then follow that up with an email so they can't say they didn't know.

The manager can put it to HR/Occupational Health that they think an employee is signed off under false pretences. HR can then request the employee is seen by a doctor attached to that workplace. Happens a lot in behemoth organisations like the CS and local government. So, no, the manager can't "overturn" a sick note. They can send their report and recommendations to HR for further action.

@rizzo23

@ElphabaTheGreen this isn't about you and what happened in your workplace though is it? You can't dismiss someone else's problems because you've had your own experience. Unfortunately I've sat in too many cases like the one the OP is dealing with and some workplaces do not take mental health or grievances against managers seriously enough.

I’m not dismissing anything, and no it’s not about me. But I think it needs to be pointed out that you can’t just leap to the assumption that everything the OP is saying is established fact, because both she and her son have every reason to have a heavily influenced interpretation of what’s going on. The manager might be out of her tree - but she might not be. In either case, I do not think the OP should intervene on behalf of her son. Support HIM as I have said - give him the personal, emotional, practical support to get himself out of this situation, including helping HIM to write HIS OWN emails. But I think interceding for him, beyond ‘I’m sorry, my son is currently unable to engage with you at present’, if he genuinely reaches that point, is really foolish.

No, it’s really not ‘foolish’ this poor man is suicidal. FFS