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Original poster

in defence of working mothers

184 replies

edam · 29/09/2004 23:43

I've been shocked by a couple of threads recently where people have been vitriolic about working mothers. All the usual, lazy, stupid comments about 'why have children if you aren't going to bring them up yourself' etc. etc.
And you know what? It makes me very angry. I have to work to feed my son and keep a roof over his head. Anyone lucky enough to be in a position where they don't have to do that should be damn grateful, not smug and superior.
I really need my sleep after a tough couple of days at work but I'm so incensed about this I'm on here instead.

OP posts:
MeanBean · 30/09/2004 23:13

I don't think Millipede's post was particularly carefully worded, but I don't see why she should get a bigger slating than Cuppy's negative stereotyping of SAHMS as plonking their kids in front of the TV and not interacting with them. I think it would be nice if people could resist this lazy categorising, whichever side they're on (and let's face it, most of us are on both sides, because most mothers do both at different stages of their lives. Why they feel the need to insult other mothers who are - perhaps temporarily - on the other side, is beyond me).

Thomcat · 30/09/2004 23:14

That's great mumylove but you don't have to convince us what a great mum you are and how busy you keep yourself. No-one thinks that becasue you 'stay at home' that that is literally all you do!

cuppy · 30/09/2004 23:17

I was worried my post would get negitive feedback. Sorry to upset you meanbean -I did try to word my post very carefully. I am not trying to slate sahm by saying they all plonk their kids in frint of the tv. Im one to you know. I was actually trying to defend working mothers by saying its the quality of care not the quantity. Bad example to use I guess. Knew I shouldnt have posted - this topic is very delicate, and close to a lot of mums hearts. Sorry to offend .

Thomcat · 30/09/2004 23:19

because cuppy was saying that some mums who stay at home could end up not really interacting with their kids whereas Millipede insulted all working mums by saying why bother having kids. Cuppy didn't say ALL mums who stay at home just shove their kids in front of the tv, she was drawing a comparison between that possibility and a mother who works and still bonds, interacts with her child inbetween

mummylove · 30/09/2004 23:21

im not offended - no worried here.

in real life we would most probably never say all this over tea, maybe wine but it could turn into a bit of hair pulling so thanks to mumsnet we can say what we want and sit safe with dead bums on our chairs... and dead feet - not moved them fo 20 minutes

would you all turn your computers off now please i want to go to bed but i cant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MeanBean · 30/09/2004 23:21

S'OK, I'm not offended! I'm not really a SAHM or a MWWOTH, so I'm not sure whose side to be on anyway! I just think we all need to be a bit careful about what examples we use and how we express our views (all of which we're entitled to express), because it is such an emotive topic.

Tanzie · 30/09/2004 23:21

I agree with Thomcat (how was your jump, BTW - have you done it yet?)

MeanBean · 30/09/2004 23:23

I agree with Mummylove - I need to go to bed! Good night all!

millipede · 30/09/2004 23:24

I'm on the fence, precisely because I've been on both sides of it. I know how much I saw of them when they were in day care, and it wasn't much. And yep, there were times I questioned why we'd had them because of this. I also know how much I didn't want to be at home for the rest of my life, but loved the 2 years I did have with them at home.

Tanzie · 30/09/2004 23:28

Thanks for clarification Millipede. Slap retracted . Am a bit hormonal at the moment.

aloha · 30/09/2004 23:30

There are lots of threads on Mumsnet in which people bemoan their relationship with their mother. They are NEVER about whether she went to work when they were three months old, six years old or 20 years old. My god, I see Sienna Miller everywhere with her stepmother, the famously workaholic Kelly Hoppen. They seem to love each other and not only did Kelly work, she wasn't even her birth mother so only saw her alternate weekends at most, I'd bet. Love and happiness can't be measured so neatly. I've never met Lottie sadly, but I've talked to Thomcat, and she is clearly a fantastic, devoted, passionate mother. Lottie is lucky to have her and, I'm sure Thomcat would say the feeling is mutual . As for the 'why have them?" comments, to me it's a bit like, "why have kids if you are just going to send them to school?" We don't assume children can't love their fathers just because they work, do we? I feel as if I am a bit of both - I work from home (and have just finished something actually). I have friend with different arrangments. I cannot honestly say the children are any different, or love their parents differently.

Thomcat · 30/09/2004 23:31

'Mmm..really' because

" I can't really see the point of having kids then putting them in full time day care from 3 months or whatever. A couple of hours in the evening when they're tired and grumpy and the weekends? Mmm..really, why bother having them?"

is not what I consider being on the fence Millipede.

If you can't see the point in having kids and working, why did you have kids then go straight out and work?

Thomcat · 30/09/2004 23:35

Oh Aloha, you've done it again, you say it so well, no wonder you're in the job you are!
Thanks for your kinds words as well btw, I appreciate you saying that

and btw I don't want this to turn into a personal attack on you by me or anyone millipede, I'm so anti that, you just insensed me and I'm like a little jack russel and won't let go until I've really argued my point out.
I don't want to fall out with oyu irredemably on this

Tanzie · 30/09/2004 23:37

TC, I have picture in my mind of you tugging at Millipede's trousers with your teeth and growling now! I have clearly had too much codeine and am off to bed...

cab · 30/09/2004 23:42

Oh noooooooooo. This thread was going so well earlier on - kept thinking it was too good to be true.
Honestly don't think millipeded meant to be naughty - just frank about her decision-making process.
(Have an awful confession to make as a SAHM. Now 41, in my 20's and early 30's I just could not understand how women who had previously had a career could give it up to look after kids. Really thought they were lazy and just liked being at home watching daytime TV and spending their husbands' money . It didn't even occur to me that they might be doing it for the kids . Dreadful!!!! So to all the SAHMs I knew before my dd arrived - I apologise profusely.)

Thomcat · 30/09/2004 23:43

LOL Tanzine!

nightowl · 01/10/2004 01:30

i admit too that when i worked i could not understand sahms but now i am one i can see things i did not before. however, like i said i will go back to work where and when it suits me as im enjoying time with my baby. sad though that if i hadnt lost my job i would not have considered leaving to spend time with her. i would say both sides are hard in different ways. when i worked i would come home, do ds's tea, housework, shopping etc. most nights i wouldnt sit down until 11pm to eat my tea and then have a bath, get everything ready for the morning and fall into bed exhausted. now im at home i have so much more time to do things yet it wears me out more emotionally if that makes any sense?

sck · 01/10/2004 08:24

There is obviously a lot of emotion running high in this SAHM vs MWWOTH. And, I was just wondering if any of us have H/Ps who struggle with the same issues. Is this issue just a Mother's issues. For me personally, I don't think my DH would EVER consider staying home. But, I have a friend who is nearing the end of her maternity leave, and her husband is going to stay home for a few months when she starts back. Then, he'll go back and they'll use a local nursery.

Just wondering what Dad's have to cope with and if they have the same issues.

puddle · 01/10/2004 12:04

SCK
Both my DP and I reduced our working hours so we see more of our children. I work full time but do two days from home and in reality work around the children so catch up in evenings/ weekends. I am the main breadwinner. My DP changed career when we had our son, after taking six months off work to be with him when I went back to work. His former job was quite pressured and he had to work late/ do corporate entertaining a fair bit. He is now a teacher and works part time. Both of us have made sacrifices in terms of our careers to be able to work flexibly and spend time with the children. But it works for us at the moment - one of the many things I love about my DP was that I knew he would want to be as involved with our children as I am. And I do think that it's a huge responsibility to be the sole wage earner in a family.

Pagan · 01/10/2004 12:16

I've been following this thread with much interest and would just like to add that I think it really does depend on the person. Sorry if this is long.

Drawing parallels on when I was choosing my subjects at school and deciding not to go back to work I have found similarities.

I like to be good at things so I was pretty good at school. When it came to choosing my subjects teachers asked me what I wanted to be - hadn't a clue but sitting in an office type job at whatever professional level certainly wasn't one of them. I was outdoory, liked making things but coz I got good grades all the comments were of the "what a waste" sort or that I should be going to uni. In the end I got so confused with no help that I left school and went straight into an office job ironically, instead of following my instincts. I worked my way up and did bloody well because I wanted to be independent. I did not return to work after having DD (now 1 year). The comments are the same - what a waste, why on earth are you giving this all up, won't you feel undervalued.

Thankfully I couldn't give a toss what anyone thinks as I know what's best for myself. I imagine that this applies to everyone - we all know what's best for ourselves, we all do things differently, we all have different capabilities.

Perhaps if I'd had a career where I really valued what I did and thought the end result made a difference then I would have been more enthusiastic about returning.

When I do finally go back to work it'll be doing something that means a lot to me.

SofiaAmes · 01/10/2004 12:17

To answer your question sck:
My dh would never take a job that prevented him from spending lots of time with his children. He would rather have less money. I chose him as the father for my children partially because of that. My first husband worked ridiculously long hours, travelled extensively, and made lots and lots of money. I decided that that wasn't what I wanted in the father of my children. Now that I have children, I am very very glad that I made that decision. (1st husband now has a child whom he never spends any time with...the mother works long hours too and they have 3 nannies and all the lastest clothes, but no time with their children!)

fisil · 01/10/2004 12:35

sck, my dp went part-time almost immediately after ds was born. Ds still goes to nursery 5 days a week, but it means that dp has time for all his little hobbies and things (sorry, that's so condescending, he has set up his own film production company!) so that at weekends he happily devotes all his time to the family. He was scared that he would resent the loss of free time to spend by himself (ie weekends), so he took a cut in salary and hours to do so. I think he has made the perfect choice and a very brave one that most women (me included) would feel far too martyrish to do!

lilsmum · 01/10/2004 13:28

i would just like to add that i have recently gone back to work part time and it kills me..... i so want to be a sahm but the fact is that we simply cant afford me to do that.. we have tried and we have ended up in a mess so back to work i went it was either that or my dp give up work and we lived on benefits and we just dont want to do that so to be honest if you can stay at home then lucky you.. if tax credits helped working families out abit more then maybe it would be possible for mothers who want to stay with their kids to do so.

Tortington · 01/10/2004 20:39

we often have these threads it always degenerates into i am a better mum than you becuase.....

the truth is there are millions of us out there who if we didnt work would end up homeless and hungry. i certainly do not have the choice which is presumed in these arguments when they arise

SofiaAmes · 01/10/2004 21:44

custardo, actually you do have the choice, and I mean that in a complimentary way. You could choose to be like my dh's ex, who has never worked a day in her life and has 6 children. She lives off the government (in the style of the home swap woman). But what a terrible example to set for her children. You have made a choice to work because you want your children to grow up seeing a good example of being a productive member of society. That doesn' t mean that SAHM aren't productive members of society. I think that they do are performing a role, but only if they do so in partnership with their partner or family. When they make me, the tax payer, an unwilling partner in their choice, then I object.

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