Help: FT lawyer having a horrible time (long...)

[lemur]

All advice on how to sort my working world out would be gratefully received... here is the thing:

I have a 9.5 month DD, in FT nursery care, a job in the City as a FT lawyer in private practice and two male partner bosses who just don't seem to realise the pressure that the above combination creates. It is Saturday night and I have just had huge row with monster of boss because I have to be in meetings tomorrow (Sunday, yes, I know it is the weekend) and I physically cannot be there as have to look after DD. DP cannot look after DD as he has football match to play(and does not want to be dictated to by my bosses) I have no handy relatives nearby who can look after DD and cannot leave DD with a friend as the meeting could go on indefinitely (i.e until Monday...).

And why am I even worrying about that level of detail, when the point is that the monster boss has, beyond saying "well you are the breadwinner so DP should sacrifice what he is doing" is also making me contact all my childless colleagues in a grovelling fashion to ask them to go to the meetings tomorrow, to punish me.

I am a lawyer and I know that somewhere in all of the S**T that is currently part of my working world, there is something breaching some of my employment rights, but I am not an employment lawyer. DP is away all next weekend and I am supposed to be working then too. I feel like just not bothering to go into work ever again.

DD had Chicken Pox just before Christmas, I had to be home with her for 7 working days and the matter ended up being referred to HR and me having to take unpaid leave because I came into work one day while DP looked after DD and so lost my right to any more emergency leave for the rest of the time DD was contagious (as was not an emergency as I knew she had CP!!!). This gives you a flavour of the way it works at the firm I work at.

I have only been back at work since the end of September 2006 and the gruelling routine of half an hour each way walk to nursery and then to work plus the working on work from 8pm until midnight plus the manipulative bosses (who had/have wives at home to look after kids) being totally unreasonable plus the fact my mum died a month before DD was born and I miss her all the time = I am somewhat losing the plot. That is a bit of an understatement.

So I guess the question is, do I just accept that you cannot do it all and find new, normal, job doing something that will never mean I have to work after 5.30 or weekends, or try and win against forces of chauvinism in the City of chauvinists?

Ideas welcome. Thank you.

I've just skimmed over the thread, and one thing jumped out at me: "I would rather do a lot of work on a Sunday than sing some stupid children's song"

I might have known that Xenia would get involved.

Lemur - I've stayed out of this because I've been involved in similar threads and felt that the thread was veering into the 'same old, same old' territory!

I have to say I found your late night post very moving. I hope you did manage to get some sleep and that today will be okay for you.

Your home life is exactly the same as mine used to operate when both DH and I were working full time, and I think it probably resonates with lots of working parents.

Life is short - sometimes unbearably so - I've had a breakdown and breast cancer, all by the age of 40 so I know what I am talking about!

I think if one is able to carry on happily working when there are children around, then fantastic, more power to your elbow. Personally, I couldn't. I have never regretted not going back to work - never ever - not even when, like now, we are absolutely stoney broke and I'm selling some of my clothes on Ebay to make a bit of money! Yes, I've got great pension arrangements but those won't kick in for a good few years yet!! But I am soooooo happy with my children - we walk together, cycle together, play together, have lots of hugs, I enjoy helping out at school, I run an after-school art club, I ride, I paint on my own during the day, I do the garden etc etc. Occasionally I miss being able to justify expensive clothes or high heels, but hey that's only a fleeting thought. And actually being able to just 'hang out' with my children is much more enjoyable. Obviously it has its moments when DS won't get up and DD is having a 'I've got nothing to wear' session, but most of the time, I just want to laugh!

You have been through a hell of a lot, and my heart goes out to you. Give yourself time to grieve, I reckon it probably takes a good 2 years to recover from the death of a parent. But you are right - seize the day, enjoy being with your dh and your daughter - they are the most important things to you.

Dn't agree with satine that by bringing legal cases which basically say women look after children and men don't so we need to change work really does help women in those jobs. They are special jobs in the City and a lot of people don't choose them. I have been amongst lots of 20 somethines because of my children at univesrity and they sit down and talk about these things - my daughter's friend who graduated last summer and started at an IB on £60k - all those young people sit around and tlak about the hours, the all nighters, the other friend who is messing around in a glamour magazine and obviously earning very little. You know the score, you project forward to your proposed life, children etc and you live with it or you leave. It is nothing to do with sexism really.It's the pact with the devil or God or whatever - you take the money and the work that goes with it.

Lots of parents prefer work to being with chidlren all the time - it's why many choose even when they don't have to, to work. Others want more time with their children as is very well and nicely expressed below.

I just feel it is sadly so so rare that women actually stand up and say I love my work, I work full time, I don't mind the hours and I love being a mother too which is how I feel.

Lemur I just wanted to wish you luck too. I am kind of in the same boat as you. I am far more qualified then you in PQE years and I think you have a good opportunity now to reassess. I can see there are posts on here from female equity partners etc but really with the benefit of hindsight I know that practically all my contemporaries would say they wish they had not wasted 10 years of their life sitting in the office all evenings and weekends and missed out on their kids and life generally. I know one particular colleague with 4 small children who has literally missed most birthdays ( even those at weekends), who sleeps a maximum of 5 hours a night and who at 37 looks more like 59. He is a truly brilliant lawyer and has just left his third firm (magic circle) who did not make him up having promised it for 3 years. I am afraid that the firms are run for the owners (partners) and that is how it is - when I was a senior associate there were several occassions where I have picked trainees up off the floor (literally!) and sent them home because we have been working through the night for 2 weeks with time say every other night to go home and get 4 hours sleep before going back in the office as it would not even cross a partners mind to send someone home. I know it can be this ridiculous. Many of my colleagues have left the profession entirely and are very bitter about wasting 10 years of their life. Unfortunately it appears that law firms cannot operate in any other way - partners earn huge money as huge hours are put in by more junior staff. You might always consider professional support (there are many junior positions for this) where the hours should be more standard, or in house or within the civil service such as the Lord Chancellors dept etc. If the money is not the draw then it is possible to find a less stressful legal career. Good Luck.

Lemur - I'm not a lawyer but I can empathise very much with your situation. I'm very sorry for the loss of your Mum, my Father had a stroke when I was 35 weeks pregnant and died when DS was 5 weeks old. You cannot under-estimate the effect this has and will have for some time.

I returned to work when DS was 6MO and found it incredibly difficult. My company were going through a major re-structure and most of the team that I had recruited and developed faced redundancy. I didn't have the long hours / weekend issues you have but had to manage the re-structure in my area which was the last thing I felt able to cope with, particularly since I was also at risk. What I really needed was a pause button - couldn't find one though..

It does get better though. DS is now 22MO and I feel more like myself again. Try not to make any rash decisions at the moment. Consider your options and think about what you (and your family) really want. I found working on a long term strategy to be a great tonic as it made me look up from my current crisis and think about more positive times.

I wish you lots of luck and hope that you find what you need .

Lemur - I was just thinking about your situation whilst walking the dogs and I reckon there might be a route to goal if you can face it.

I think if you overtly tackle chauvinism, it would entail a long, stressful and costly battle - cost being not just financial - which you may not want.

How about talking to HR - propose a period of reduced hours - something that is a reasonable compromise - maybe even just a month or two?

If they say yes, then you get to 'pause' for a bit, catch up with yourself, your emotions and your family.

If they say no, it might put you in a position where they might offer to do a deal with you to leave the company?

If you can position yourself so that you have been the good, responsible, e'ee, seeking resolution within your rights, and they are the unreasonable e'er, who said no for the hell of it, and who require their pound of flesh, they might just want you out of the company as much as you want to get out, but you'll have the cards?

Get a friendly employment lawyer to write them a letter pointing out the errors of their ways, and then say to them "but I don't want to go down that route for your, and my, sakes. Let's do a deal"

I obviously don't know the politics within your company, but you might even be able to say to your boss either 'you're compromising my rights, let's do a deal and I'll go quietly'. If he says no, you've probably got some hell to get through while you work your notice, but if there's light at the end of the tunnel.... On the other hand, he might say yes.

I'm not sure if any of these options are viable, but they might be worth thinking about?

There's no "error of their ways". Tere's error of choice on people who pick this work when they know what the hours are like, though. No one is going to hold up a corporate transaction when you've 40 people working on it all night (including often partners) because one person needs some sleep or can't find a babysitter. That's not the real world in this areas and I really object to it being called chauvanism. Men and women with children have the same issues with these deals and this work.

I think one of the best solutions on the thread was to hire a sleep consultant to get the child sleeping through the night for a start because that alone makes working and stay at home parents find life so much easier to deal with.

Also reassess if there are no promotion prospects and you're not happy why you're doing it at all. It's all well and good if you love the work, know you can make a lot of money etc like me but if you don't have that prospect and don't enjoy it either it may be best to find something with shorter hours for the same money.

sorry to use this thread but it seems to be the most current one - dinosaur I have ben trying to contact you from the thread last week regarding another lawyers issue which focussed on psl work - please can you reply there please. thanks

Can you bump the thread please?

Lemur, I have read your latest message and understand where you are coming from. You have a lot on your plate at the moment, but I do think the suggestion of speaking to HR to see if you can get some sort of breathing space is a good idea.
It is tough starting out in law. I often think that it would be good to move to a smaller city (Bristol springs to mind) as then I could live in a nice area and walk 20 minutes to work. Not battling the tube each day would be a great relief!

I hope it all works out for you and I think you have your priorities straight. Very few people at the end of their lives will reflect and say "I wish I had spent more time in the office." A damn sight more will wish that they had taken the time to get to know their chilren. I think that working mothers choose a difficult path, but that there are real positives in giving your child the example of a mother who works and the opportunity to socialise with other children at nursery.

Now I am off to check out vacancies at Spudballoo's firm...

The quote I always like was Sir John Betjeman who said his one regret in old age was he had not had enough sex. I saw Joan Bakewell (70s) making a similar comment in the press this weekend.

I work for myself and equity partners work for themselves. I think that had a big difference once you get to that stage of your life. I know my father found his private medical practice easier than dealing with being an NHS employee. When my sister had her children we spent hours talking abotu should she stay employed in the NHS (she's a clinical psychologist) or work for herself - she set up on her own from home charing about £80 an hour I think and it's so much easier, because she decides the hours. It's people without control and power who have the most mental health problems. But may be that's just an age and stage thing and most people can't do that until they've had quite a few years' experience at what they do. I would want all 5 of my children to try to pick some work where if they chose when they were older they could found their own business or work for themselves. That can also be the best way to make more money too.

lemur, have ust read this thread and wanted to say my heart goes out to you and so sorry you lost you mum. I can only imagine what a hard time you are having.

I used to have a very good job, lots of responsibility but after having DS, now 15 mnths, I wanted different things (please dont shout at me xenia) I now work 2 days a week, earn relativley good money, although I will never be a millionaire. But, god, who cares? I spend 5 days with my boy and have great fun. I think I am one of the lucky ones.

Anyway, I hope everything works out for you. You sound lovely

Lemur

I'm sorry about your mother and with the problems you are having at work.

I changed jobs within my company when I was pregnant with my DTS because I knew that I did not want the pressures of a management role that took me overseas often whilst they were young. I now work 3 days week doing a technical job and for me, I have the perfect balance as well as as DH who is equally involved in raising our sons and doing his share of domestic duties.

Good luck!

plibble what area of law are you in - as for Spudballoo's firm - I wil trace you - it is in a different zone to my top 10 firm. It is a shame you can't have it all....

I would not talk to HR. I have people who wish to cause me bodily harm that I'd rather get into this fight on my side.

HR's job is to protect managment from the staff. As a lawyer you can make life expensive for them in a variety of ways. Their job will be to ensure that you can't. OK, you'll be able to push them, but why buy into yet more enemies ?
DW is a City lawyer, and she tells me that's it's really hard to get good jobs in specialist law outside the city.

But to an extent that cuts both ways...

I think you need to find a good headhunter, and as I understand the market currently, that's just a matter of taking the phobe calls.

Once you have hedged your position, then you can negotiate from a position of strength.

My db is a specialist lawyer outside london. Is a top dog at it too as they are they only firm to do it outside London.

Yes, if she can get a better paid job she enjoys more that could be a good plan unless as the other child is 2 or whatever baby number 2 might be part of the plan and changing jobs not so wise in that case.

Not read all the comments since your last post lemur, but one thing did strike me. The longer you stay in a specialist/niche role, the harder you might find it to actually achieve the move. At 2 years PQE people will probably still think that your skills are transferable (I moved from private practice litigation to in house IT law at around this point) but it may be more difficult to convince them of this further down the line.

Something you may want to bear in mind - good luck in whatever you decide

Lemur, I found your post moving too.

I've found this thread quite depressing (not your fault and I don't mean to imply it is, it just hasn't made for cheerful reading) - I just skimmed it when I got in tonight and then escaped the chaos of my house and stomped around Tesco while thinking about it and trying to work out why I found it so. I couldn't quite put my finger on it but I think it's to do with the whole working model and its demands. Anyway, it's not relevant.

I'm sorry if you asked for advice and what happened was that hundreds of us piled in with our opposing views and turned it into a debate. But hey, I'm glad you found it interesting and it was good humoured so that's good.

But I cheered when I read the bit of your post that said:

"...I love my DD and DP more than work and if I have to choose, they, and not work come first. "

And this bit:

"...I think I will probably look for another job, leave London for somewhere greener if we can and try and have a life with a bit of fun in, as there is not enough time for it the way we live at the moment. Thank you all for the kind comments about my Mum, a lot of my desperation and stress is doubtless because I miss her and she was my best friend. She worked hard all her life to bring up four of us, worked FT, ran the household equally with my Dad, and died so young that she and my Dad never got to have the fun that makes life good. I don't want to find that I look back in 10 years time and realised I skipped the fun bit. "

You are right imo, please, don't skip the fun bit. Because it's important and so is allowing yourself to grieve.

I hope there's been some helpful stuff here.

lemur, i too thought your post moving and thoughtful(and good humoured in all the circs!). your current assessment of the situation you / dh / dd find yourselves in is spot on imo. there are no easy answers but hope you find a way that suits you all. i also found it depressing that there are these dillemmas for FAMILIES in this day and age..... the fact that men suffer equally does not cheer me in any way. my own personal experience is that i am one of those previously workaholic lawyer types who now bitterly regrets not being around more for my dc's when they were smaller..... and i have always had fab nanny and saintly dh. but that is only my personal experience (see xenias posts for someone with v v different views ). good luck.

meb2006 I have posted on the other thread now .

Hi,

Thank you for all the support! I have finished what I absolutely had to do tonight, and only have the "should do" bits to go, so I am having a bit of a pause and reading this thread since yesterday.

Happy stuff first of all, to boost happiness level of thread, following comments about how sad it is: my big sister had a DS today . My sister, her DH and DD are delighted. So am I!

Second, I really wish I had the time to say thank you individually to everyone on this long thread, for their comments and experiences. twickersmum, meowmix, piglit, jampots, Anchovy, hoxtonchick, controlfreaky2, spudballoo, Xenia, Paranoid Android, wickedwaterwitch, freckle, clayhead and everyone else, I am grateful for all of it, I have had a really good think. DP read the thread, and it has made him think a lot too.

What strikes me is that it is very very difficult to be a good enough mum (or dad), hold a fulfilling job, keep the house tidy, try to be healthy, see friends sometimes and still have time to match up the socks in the sock drawer!

I think this thread has helped remind me that as I race from childcare to conference call and from cot to computer the clue to keeping sane is to remember that other things matter more than bad bosses. Somehow, bad bosses can be swapped for good bosses or, better still, no bosses!

Back to the work and the jobs websites...

Sweet dreams and thank you all.

Lemur

lemur - congratualtions excellent news!

you sound much happier today im glad you've realised you're good at all of it

now next step is to meet up with spudballoo and meet her bosses ;)

Hi Lemur, just to add my tuppence worth (and because I'm up and so are you) - I did 10 years at a magic circle firm in the corporate dept, had two children, left to set up a company with a client, had another child, sold that company, had another child, and am now looking to get back into the law (not private practice) having had my 4th almost a year ago.

I would say that I always had to work exactly as hard for exactly as long as my childless colleagues when I was in the city - the fact that I had children was not seen by anyone as any reason not to do whatever needed to be done. One of the most difficult things I've found about your post is that you had to ask a childless, junior, colleague to go to meetings in your place so that your dh could play football. I just think that when you are reduced to making others do your work for you, absent serious illness or something, there is something wrong which needs changing. It clearly isn't fair on your colleague to be filling in for your antisocial hours, simply because she hasn't got children, and so that your dh can play ball. It is horrifyingly UNfair, in fact.

It is very early in your career, at 2 years PQE you can change and do anything (if your specialism is difficult to place elsewhere) but I'd echo whoever it was who said that if you aren't on any sort of a partnership path at this firm then there is no reason at all to stay there if you are so unhappy with the set up. Apart from anything else if the specialism is considered so marginal there, you probably aren't even getting the best training and work that you could be getting (and should be getting for those hours and that boss and that hassle!)

I know it is difficult to see even very obvious things when you are in the middle of high pressure, high hours, complex work - apart from anything else the City is a place where everything seems so IMPORTANT from the inside and it is only when you look at it from the outside that you see that actually almost none of it is, really - heresy - but you are in the wrong job at the wrong firm. Life doesn't have to be like this. Once you are out of it (working at another firm, working in another specialism, working in another town, all or any of the above) you will look back and wonder why the hell you did it for so long.
Best of luck!

Can I echo what pph has just said? I work in a vastly different field but have come to the same conclusion.

When my first son was a baby, I was working as a copywriter. This had been my profession for some years. I was used to working long hours at short notice for various advertising agencies in London. It was the culture and I accepted it.

My current job was with a design consultancy in Essex. I had landed the job when my son was a year old and from the outside, it looked good - company car, good salary, even some working from home. However, I quickly found my bosses were not family friendly and soon made it very difficult for me to work from home. The job was also specialised - mainly writing brochures for a car manufacturer. Not what I really wanted to do at all. However, I kept plugging away, convinced the advantages outweighed the disadvantages.

I did this for 7 years during which time I gradually lost all motivation. In the last year I was there, I became pregnant again and my mother died soon after my baby was born.

At that point I discovered mumsnet and spent hours of my working day online here. I did not admit to myself how much I hated my job or how trapped I really felt. It came as a relief when the deparment was restructured and I was asked to take redundancy. Leaving was the best thing that had happend to me in a long time. It was also helped by the fact that I had taken out redundancy insurance and I had a small inheritance from my mother.

I lived off the insurance and inheritance while I looked around for another job. I tried to go to a few interviews for ad agency copywriters, but just couldn't summon up any enthusiasm.

I decided to try to get into communications work in the public sector. Luckily I was in the right place at the right time and got a tempory communications post with my local council. I swapped a 3 hour daily round trip commutem, a 45+ hour working week and 4 weeks annual leave for a 20 minutes walk to work, 7 weeks annual leave plus flexi leave and a much nicer working environment. The job was so much more enjoyable, challenging and varied, too. 4 year later I am still there.

I so regret I did not make the change all those years ago. It is one of my deepest regrets both from a personal and career point of view.

In my line of work, it's true that I did not have to suffer a massive drop in salary by moving from the private to public sector.
In your line of work, this may not be financially viable.

But that's not my main point. I just don't want you to make my mistake of underestimating myself, underestimating the job market and not believing that better employers do exist if you keep looking. And also, IME, it does not hurt to take out redundancy insurance.