Help: FT lawyer having a horrible time (long...)

[lemur]

All advice on how to sort my working world out would be gratefully received... here is the thing:

I have a 9.5 month DD, in FT nursery care, a job in the City as a FT lawyer in private practice and two male partner bosses who just don't seem to realise the pressure that the above combination creates. It is Saturday night and I have just had huge row with monster of boss because I have to be in meetings tomorrow (Sunday, yes, I know it is the weekend) and I physically cannot be there as have to look after DD. DP cannot look after DD as he has football match to play(and does not want to be dictated to by my bosses) I have no handy relatives nearby who can look after DD and cannot leave DD with a friend as the meeting could go on indefinitely (i.e until Monday...).

And why am I even worrying about that level of detail, when the point is that the monster boss has, beyond saying "well you are the breadwinner so DP should sacrifice what he is doing" is also making me contact all my childless colleagues in a grovelling fashion to ask them to go to the meetings tomorrow, to punish me.

I am a lawyer and I know that somewhere in all of the S**T that is currently part of my working world, there is something breaching some of my employment rights, but I am not an employment lawyer. DP is away all next weekend and I am supposed to be working then too. I feel like just not bothering to go into work ever again.

DD had Chicken Pox just before Christmas, I had to be home with her for 7 working days and the matter ended up being referred to HR and me having to take unpaid leave because I came into work one day while DP looked after DD and so lost my right to any more emergency leave for the rest of the time DD was contagious (as was not an emergency as I knew she had CP!!!). This gives you a flavour of the way it works at the firm I work at.

I have only been back at work since the end of September 2006 and the gruelling routine of half an hour each way walk to nursery and then to work plus the working on work from 8pm until midnight plus the manipulative bosses (who had/have wives at home to look after kids) being totally unreasonable plus the fact my mum died a month before DD was born and I miss her all the time = I am somewhat losing the plot. That is a bit of an understatement.

So I guess the question is, do I just accept that you cannot do it all and find new, normal, job doing something that will never mean I have to work after 5.30 or weekends, or try and win against forces of chauvinism in the City of chauvinists?

Ideas welcome. Thank you.

we have known each other since we were born c.freaky .

blimey! dont think i have any current friends i've known that long! err, and the email??

have just replied to the e-mail .

Hi,
Am going to wade through every word on this thread just as soon as I have waded through the work I have to do tonight and after I have got DD back to sleep. Thank you for the ideas, the support and the encouragement. Thank you too for the debate - I am too fragile and tired tonight to justify my decisions, but I want to say thank you to those who pointed out some ways to make things better and thankyou to hoxtonchick for the biscuits, bath treats and shoulder.

Until (probably much) later,
Lemur.

v glad you've survived (even if only just).

glad you're home

lemur, I hope you are feeling better soon. x

lemur - sorry to hear your dd had chickenpox. Hope you made it through today okay, what a horrible situation to be in.

I do think xenia has made a good point. In some firms you have to be prepared to put the work before a sick child. I would never be prepared to do that, nor would dh, which was why he moved. DS3 recently had a seizure and dh left a work conference to come to hospital with him and me- obviously that's why xenia earns the big bucks and dh doesn't. But I wouldn;t swap positions as the money would never compensate us for the things we missed. It's not important enough to us, material things just don;t make up for the expectations.

If you're in a good firm now, there'll be other more family friendly firms who want to have you- give them your time and abilities- why waste it on people who have a life view that is at odds with yours?

I think there's something wrong with a world which demands that parents - and I do mean PARENTS not just mothers - can only succeed in their careers if they completely ignore the responsibilities of having children. Because if you are a parent or have other dependents (an elderly mother say) then your responsibilities are different imo to someone who is single and has no dependents. And yes, a nanny can carry out many duties, including sick children and cpox for example is usually no big deal, it wouldn't have bothered me to leave either of mine with someone else while they got over it but if it was something serious I would want it to be me OR dh looking after the child, either one of us anyway. And I would expect both of our employers to recognise that sometimes yes, we have to look after our children because sometimes no-one else will do.

Reading this thread makes me bloody glad I'm not a lawyer, frankly. Lemur, I hope there's something helpful in amongst this lot.

I think the working world in general has started to wake up to work/life balance and its importance and a lot of companies realise that if you don't offer some semblance of it then good people just get pissed off with not having a life and leave. And thre walks away all recruitment and training costs and experience. But from the sounds of it law firms are way behind in this.

Lemur, just trying to give you a longer response in case you have time to read! So very sorry to read about your mum, that is truly rough. In fact on its own would be enough to cause all the things you are feeling.

FWIW, I gave up a well-paid contracting lifestyle when I had my ds, because I knew it would involve ludicrous hours and too many sacrifices. My dh is a SAHD but is chronically ill as well, so a lot of the parenting falls to me as well as working full-time. That's how it is. If my employer didn't support me, I would be royally screwed and quite honestly might as well be living on benefits. I don't really know what life is like with a well partner - but as you've already pointed out, a well partner quite rightly has their own agenda, where as at least my dh cannot do anything on his own ... but has to sleep all morning - anyway, all very complicated.

My first thought is, these barriers will never get broken down if pioneers don't force them down. Yet here I am, completely ducking out of a similar role because I know its priorities would conflict too much with mine. I had no career axe to grind though; I could simply be earning a lot more money doing the same job, but the rewards are not worth it. Equally, there is no major 'punishment' for doing what I do now, i.e. permie job in the public sector - I'm not going backwards, I'm just not earning the money I could do. As we can afford that, that's fine.

Clearly there are many harder choices to be made. If I am going to agree with Xenia at all it has to be on the point that this is not your decision alone; your dd has two parents and together you have to share the responsibility. It is far too easy in this country for it all to fall to the woman; dh and I lived in Sweden for years and are constantly horrified by the casual (and very real) assumption that childcare is a women's issue.

I earn all the money in my household, but would still not be prepared to give up a Sunday to a phone conference. On the other hand, I don't work in the law, I don't work in the city, and I won't presume to know what the heck I am talking about on that basis.

Gut feel: I would find another job. But as I say above, if we all always do that, nothing moves forward.

Take care, and get some rest!

just quickly read this thread, Lemur, and agree with you that there have been lots of constructive comments about what to do. And an interesting debate.

I think you have a huge amount on your plate. Don't understimate it. My mother died when my youngest son was 6 months old and for months afterwards, I felt I was 'ok' at work, but my motivation and concentration was at a low ebb. Grief and hormones saw to that. I ended up leaving my job (not in same field as yours) and changing careers.

Not saying you should leave your job or change careers. For all I know you may have a long history of success at your present firm and everything may be workable in time. I think you need to break down your problem into manageable chunks, though.

Emergency childcare will take the pressure off you and your dh. You must have it.

If you are the main breadwinner, your dh must put his leisure plans on hold if you have to work AND there is no other childcare option.

After that, I think you should look around for other work in your field to at least give you a feeling for what is out there.

I also think you should keep a diary of your working day, note things down. Send and ask for emails - so if you decide to go for grievance, you have proof of harassment from your bosses. If you need emergency leave, send emails to your bosses with the aim of making them reply in an email, not just via a conversation. (sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs as you are the legal person, not me).

Lastly, and I am saying this from my experience, I would keep quiet about the details of your family life as much as possible. Do not reveal much about the childcare set up between you and your dh as anything you say will invite comment and criticism from your bosses - and invite probing questions into your family life. That will do you no good in the long run. Your bosses do not sound like sympathetic people so never play on their sympathy.

If you have no emergency childcare for a particular day, tell them that but be sparing with other details. Do not tell them what dh is actually doing. At the most, tell them he is not in town that day. IME you can be vague, have boundaries about what you will discuss while still being co operative and regretful.

Is there anyway better IT could help you? Any good looking into your home IT arrangements?

Anyway, hope you can sort something out. I do think all the people around you are pulling you in different directions all at once.

Batters' post in particular has been spot on,(and less rambly than this one!). Hope some of this makes sense, anyway - and take care!

I utterly, utterly agree that a child is the responsibility of both parents btw and that men AND women need to pull their weight wrt domestic AND childcare responsibilities.

And plenty of women work ft oth AND take 90% of all domestic responsibility, more fool them I say.

I'm really trying not to get drawn into this but keep getting pulled back to have a look. I am an equity partner in major City law firm, doing corporate/M&A full time. I have 2 small children - 3 and 5.

A few observations:

I do not have - and hope never to have - a live-in nanny, but I have an excellent live-out one. I had one nanny who stayted for 4 years, and my second has been with us for a year. I invest a lot into my relationship with my nanny - not money, but making sure the relationship really works, because when you have a good flexible childcare regime, everything else gets a whole lot easier. My experience has been from watching colleagues that nurseries do not work very well because of their relative inflexibility. The one week-off with chicken pox scenario would also not happen with a nanny.

My DH is extremely hands-on with the children and does not view them as my responsibility. If our nanny is sick or one of the children needs us for a doctors appointment, then which ever of us can most easily make it will go. Childcare is split pretty much 50-50 between us. DH was a contemporary of mine at another law firm before going in-house and he recognises that I have the better and more stable long term career model. That is not often mentioned at home but is understood. So the playing football scenario, for us, would not arise. If I am either abroad or tied up on a transaction, he just keeps things going in the normal way - he knows the homework routine, the current hair bobble regime, what can and cannot go into lunchboxes, what day PE kit is required for etc. I'm always a bit gobsmacked that people are surprised at this - its not exactly rocket science or part of female mystique.

Must be said, few people characterise me as a "new man", but when DW has to work when the nanny isn't around, my leisure time gets zapped.

Can't say I'm happy about that, but it's stupidly unfair to do otherwise.

Tigermoth embarasses me, by asking about IT, should have mentioned it first, given my previous life.
At low cost you can have all your IT at home.
Low being your charge out rate for a couple of days.
Have a word with your IT people, odds are they have it for themselves, but haven't told anyone.

I'm not a lawyer, but doing specialised consultancy in the legal field. After years of FT, PT and every-which-way juggling, I'm now self-employed, working mainly from home.

You've had a lot of good advice here, but one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that in terms of dicating working conditions your hand is hugely strengthened if you have a very specialised area of expertise. There are about half a dozen people in the UK in my particular niche, and half of them also have full-time jobs in universities so have a relatively small case-load. Because there's a lot of demand for the work I can afford to be very clear with clients about the terms on which I take on work, so can generally fit things around my children's needs. That would be much harder to pull off if I were in an overcrowded field. I know there is a lawyer MNer who has a similarly specialised area and has also successfully negotiated an arrangement which allows her to take quite a lot of time off during school holidays, so it can work for lawyers too.

Occasionally I have demands made on me at very short notice, usually relating to trials at various far-flung ends of the country. If push comes to shove dh can and does take time off to do school runs, and like anchovy's dh is au fait with the necessary domestic detail (though I am still the one with the masterplan in her head).

I think a nanny is a must, though. Nurseries are too much of a bind -- if you have that many demands on you I'd have thought you need to know that you can walk out on the whole shooting match at 7am and someone will deal with it without you needing to use up your valuable brainspace on nursery equipment or school kit.

Anchovy, that's how I think most people in your position manage. It is possible. I don't think enough people say so. I don't think enough people say work can be huge fun too.

Very unhappy about people saying l has some kindo f harrassment claim against her firm. It's the type of work where you have to work weekends some times. That has nothing to do with being female. You know what the job demands when you take it on. If you don't like it you leave like a lot of women on this thread but I find it morally repugnant to suggest you take it out on the employer.

Also of course delighted lemur did go into work....I want to know if the husband played football or whether he, not she, fixed the alternative child care.

Also under 5s by far much much hardest stage. My oldest i 22. When I was 26 I was working full time in the City and had 3 children under 4 at one point. Nothing has been as hard as that stage but I think if I had been home it would also have been even harder as I could not have stood it. Given how long we live and work the under 5s stage is a tiny little blip we all just have to get through. If we can ensure we don't tolerate sexism at home that sets a great example to our children and helps them and our grandchildren to have more equitable domestic lives.

Hi,
Okay, its late, hopefully I am the only one still up, but now I will try to fill in the gaps and explain myself a bit. Thank you so much for all the suggestions, so many of them are so helpful.

DP does work FT, he does do the nursery run, the nursery is just nearer my office and not at all near his, so I do mornings and he does half of the evenings. He spends a lot of time looking after DD in the mornings, the evenings and the weekends and is very flexible, only our arrangement is that Sunday afternoon is his time, Sunday morning is mine (I go running if I have the energy). Neither of us ever gets to go out in the week, as there is too much to do, and so this is why football and running matter.

I am a very junior associate (2 years qualified) in a very niche area in a very large firm. I certainly do not get paid £1m or even £100k. I work 9.30 to 5.30 or later if DP picks DD up. I try to be home by 7 as I am still BF. We get DD to bed, then I work from 8 - 12 most nights. We wake about 4 times in the night as DD is a poor sleeper. Long explanation but this is why by the time Friday comes around, I feel I really need and value my weekend.

We send DD to a nursery as it is near my work, we believe in children playing together and learning to socialise and be independent and we believe there is a benefit in more than one person looking after DD. We could not afford a nanny even if we wanted one and our flat is so small it drives us mad and would do so to anyone who had to be here all the time.

I have learned now that you can get emergency nannies, and so if DD were to get mumps or measles or something nasty and was not running a temperature of 39+ with ear infections as during CP, then Xenia, I assure you, I will get one of them round and make sure I go to work.

As to work - spudballoo, can I have a job please? Today, DP went to his match (he won, thank you), a very tired and even more junior but childless colleague went to meetings in my place until DP got home, I then went in and took over. I came back when I could and DP had (as is often the case) fed and bathed DD, and he got her back to sleep when I last posted.

So I hope that makes it all a bit clearer. We are youngish parents for London, I am a very young mum for the City legal field and we only rent a little flat, we do not own an island. DP pulls his weight and more.

I did of course, know what I signed up to when I joined my firm, and I did love my job, work all hours including weekends, and my main boss did rely on me to always be there, so it is true it is me that has changed and not him. He was really understanding when my mum died just before DD was born, he is sometimes a nice person, and I used to get on with him very well. I do really want to do a good job, I am really committed to my practice area, and I am the kind of person who is prepared to work very very hard. But I cannot do more than I can physically do, and I have to sleep and eat sometimes.

All that said, I don't think I am that weird if I say I love my DD and DP more than work and if I have to choose, they, and not work come first.

That may all sound a little defensive, but I am trying to explain that I am not stupid, or lazy or senior at work. There are no partnership prospects in my firm in my area, it is that niche, and I would not want that life. I do not aspire to tons of money or status derived from the size of deals, just as I know that I can never bring a claim against my employer because the culture supports my bosses views, not mine.

I am really grateful for all the support offered by lots of people, interested by the views of others and think that this has been a very interesting thread.

I think I will probably look for another job, leave London for somewhere greener if we can and try and have a life with a bit of fun in, as there is not enough time for it the way we live at the moment. Thank you all for the kind comments about my Mum, a lot of my desperation and stress is doubtless because I miss her and she was my best friend. She worked hard all her life to bring up four of us, worked FT, ran the household equally with my Dad, and died so young that she and my Dad never got to have the fun that makes life good. I don't want to find that I look back in 10 years time and realised I skipped the fun bit.

Sweet dreams and thank you.

Lemur

oh lemur - im glad you managed to get through today somehow. I feel for you.

Do your firm have openings in other areas ie. Manchester Birmingham which somehow dont carry quite the same "hugeness" as London City? Are you able to retrain in a different area of law and still put your expertise and achievements to good use in your chosen field but still manage to be an excellent mum and wife (which you are) ?

As you are only 2 years qualified I am assuming you havent had loads of experience of other firms but maybe they're not all as bad

{{}}

lemur, sorry for what went on on your thread probably caused by me, although it was interesting for a lot of people. Glad you got through your day and how you manage is like most people where both parents work, I think. It wasn't too different from when I was that age except we probably lived further out in outer london and had a little house so we were near my husband's teaching work (n case of child emergencies in the day) and used a day nanny which is cheaper with quite a few children than a nursery.

I suppose when I was that stage I expected one day to earn a lot of money and that transpired, although not £1m a year. In fact initially the nanny's wage was less than one of our salaries but I had this expectation that I would work really hard, do very well and I really really wanted that and the more I did of the work the more I liked it. If I was working like you with no promotion prospects it is a very very different situation.

Really sorry about your mother too. Mine died 2 years ago.

I think when you have under 5s don't change anything about how your life is, because whether you're working or at home full time with them life is very hard indeed, so it's not a good time to make radical life changing decisions. Teenagers in green areas have no where to go and take drugs in bus stops so I think in some ways staying in London when they're in their teens gives them a better life but I suppose I'm just biased by the choices I took.

I think those like me who on the limited information we had made inaccurate statements about your poor husband owe him an apology!

Wow! You do like the sweeping statement, don't you?? "Teenagers in green areas have no where to go and take drugs in bus stops."

I think you'll find that teenagers will find drugs wherever they are if that is what they want. I don't think living in London has any greater guarantee that a child won't end up taking drugs. I would brought up in the country and I don't remember any of my friends taking drugs - let alone in bus stops.

Lemur's baby is less than one year old. Moving out of London to a smaller town might be just perfect, with a smaller, more closely knit community. Great with a small baby going into toddlerdom. The money may not be as great in the sticks, but then neither are the housing costs.

lemur, I'm so sorry that you're having such a grim time and I'm very sorry about your mum.

I am a lawyer too but gave up fee-earning yonks ago and have worked in a City firm as a PSL for nearly a decade now. I have some regrets but at least I'll never look back and regret that I worked so hard when my children were small!

If there really are no megabucks partnership prospects in your niche, I would definitely leave if I were you. Those megabucks partnership prospects are the only reason to stick with the punishing hours. I'm a corporate lawyer and I hated those hours.

Morning Lemur, your message made me feel so sad for you as you are clearly really feeling the loss of your mother. I found I missed my Mum all over again when my son was born 15 months ago, I can't imagine how devastating the loss must have felt so close to the birth of your child.

You and your H are clearly juggling lots of balls, as all working parents do, but thrown in to your mix is bereavement and really arsey bosses. Personally I think considering a move out of London is a good thing to look in to, it's very hard to be a relatively newly qualified associate in a niche area, no obvious prospects of the kind of pay rise which makes things like a nanny/bigger flat etc viable. At which point you have to start to make hard choices about what is the right thing for you as a family.

I feel very sad that you felt you needed to justify your choices, and that many people jumped to conclusions about your H, his career, your salary etc etc. I think we all went off on one on a quiet Sunday while you had steam coming out of your ears trying to juggle childcare and going in to work.

I hope you had a better night than usual with your daughter and don't feel to exhausted today.

On a TOTALLY separate note, is it worth considering tackling her night wakings? That at least will help you to feel more human. My son didn't sleep through until 10 months, at which point I did sleep training and night weaning with him. We had a rough 2 nights, but my life was transformed once I got some sleep (and I am on long term sick leave at the moment, so not having to go to work feeling like the dead). I used a lovely MNetter (idontlikecrusts) as a sleep trainer as I wasn't confident doing it without help and support, and she was fabulous. Just a thought.

Anyway, I just wanted to say hello because your post brought tears to my eyes this morning because I feel for you.

x

So sorry I haven't had time to read the whole thread but my initial reaction is you are faced with a choice - either try to tackle your disgracefully chauvinistic and disgraceful bosses and their unrealistic and unfair demands, or you bow out and look for a more flexible and manageable job elsewhere. The way your bosses are treating you is outrageous, but my brother works in the City, and I know that the expectations there are very different to the rest of the country (partly becasue there's usually a queue of people behind you who would put up with the bullshit to get your job!) and I also appreciate that you've probably worked your backside off to get where you are, so you could try tackling them head on, with the aid of an employment lawyer, and they might be forced to move into the 21st century. But, let's be honest, if you did succeed, although you'd be forging a path for all the working mothers who come after you, your particular workplace would perhaps be more uncomfortable than ever.
So I guess what I'm saying is - how noble and self sacrificing do you feel?! Personally, I left a good career in the Army to have children becasue I wasn't prepared to put my job before them - but then I was facing 6 month tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've never regretted it (although I do miss the money.... )
I hope whatever decision you make makes you happier.