Message for Xenia

[opinionsrus]

What I would like to ask is how exactly do you find so much spare time to chat on these boards about earning between £100k and £250k when you have five children of your own and also what seems must be a very demanding full time job?

I have just one child and a very part time job and this will be about the only 5 minutes I get to luxuriate on the internet?

oohh no!!1not versus....in total(waell sometimes !)agreement!!!loving her posts!!mature well phrased...well done...(the ones I have read!!)

'twas apparently a faux flounce. Not the first and surely not the last on MN.

Cod, I think there is lots to admire in Xenia's posts. Granted not everyone does. But this is not a case of Xenia against everyone else. Several people have spoken out in support of her views, including me.

Women do have a right to work, just like men. No one would bat an eye at these views if Xenia were a man. In fact so much so that she has even (ludicrously) been accused of in fact being a man pretending to be a woman. I find it very refreshing that there are women on mumsnet who speak out for the rights of women.

My work is my security. If my marriage goes goes south (and many do) it will be the crutch that get me and my kids through it. I would NEVER give my job/career. (unless I won the lottery, but that's impossible since I don't play it)

I support and agree with most of what Xenia has said. AndI'm willing to bet I'm not alone.

"I find it very refreshing that there are women on mumsnet who speak out for the rights of women. "

It depends how you interpret rights for women. If it became the norm that most women return to work 2 weeks after giving birth (I still couldn't walk comfortably at that stage!) and that most women return to work full-time - as advocated strongly by Xenia - could it not have the knock on effect of fewer woemn returning to work at all.

6/12 months maternity leave and a right to return to one's job part time were policies that women battled for. There's still a long way to go and true equality will involve more men taking longer paternity leave and working more flexibly. But suggesting that women are only entitled to succeed in their workplace, alongside motherhood, if they act like men, is a step backwards. IMO

I keep being ascribed with views I don't have. I went back to work after 2 weeks and I found that easier and better for our famiyl. I haven't said anyone else should. I've said wmoen and men should realise they can if they choose go back after 2 weeks adn they won't be struck down by God and indeed they can still have happy relationships with their children by doing that. I've pointed it out as an option, not the one true path.

Iget the feeling stay at home mothers seem to be more threatened by working mothers than working mothers are by SAHMs just by some of the posts.

Why is it easier to be at home alone with 3 under 4s when you had a baby 3 weeks ago than sitting in a calm office dealing with work? Physically you recover better in the calm office. At home you have the toddlers to heave around, washing to load etc. Depends on the job of course and I think if you're employed on a factory production line there's a 4 week return to work rule, not 2 weeks but for office work going back soon can aid your recovery better than dealing with children at home.

It is great women and men have a right to take maternity and paternity leave. It's better than the days when there were no such rights so parents had to choose to give up work for a time without any right to return. I've never said otherwise and the new paternity leave next year will make things even fairer.

"There's still a long way to go and true equality will involve more men taking longer paternity leave and working more flexibly. "

I absolutely agree.

I think Xenia is advocating that a return to work as early as you like should be an option for women -- just as it is for men. I do not think she is advocating that women do this against their will. But, if you want to do it, then there is nothing wrong with it.

I too returned to work very quickly in a male dominated office and I got many disapporving looks and comments. They infuriated me to no end. I even had men tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about: and that I wouldn't be back. That I would change my mind when the baby was born. It was all a bit too "don't worry your pretty little head about it" to me. What? Like some random male colleague know better than I do what I'm going to do next month? Absurd!

If, however, Xenia is advocating that every women should return to work full time immediately even against their will, then I would disagree with her. But, the comment I have read don't say that. Howerever, perhaps I have missed some?

I don't think people are saying that it's easier to be at home with children, Xenia, far from it. SAHMs don't usually make the decision to be SAHMs on the basis that they think it will be easier for them, just as most WOHMs who go back to work don't do so because they think it will be easier for them. Women tend to make these decisions on the basis of what they believe will be ebst for their family as a whole, taking in a range of factors - family economy, the children's welfare and their own views on child-rearing and the importance of thir careers.

People have responded badly to you not because you made your own choices the way you did, but because you have run down other people's choices and made rude, hurtful generalisations about what SAHMs do and the superiority of your own lifestyle over others'.

I think most women see the issue of women's rights as being essentually about women's choices. Being socially press-ganged and guilt-tripped into going back to work when our babies are still tiny, when so many of us feel that that is not the right thing to do for us or our children, is no better than being forced to stay at home would be for you. We don't all want the same things, we are not all good at the same things, and the whole point of women's campaigning for the right to control their own lives was that no woman should be run down and belittled for making the choices she believes are right for herself and her family. There is no victory for women's rights while women like you are still sneering at SAHMs as an inferior breed. There's nothing new in that attitude - men have done it for centuries. I'm afraid your particular brand of feminism has missed the point in rather a large way.

But Xenia you have a derisory way of talking about people who make choices different to your own. That's not being supportive of people's differences.

Xenia - one personal question for you.. are you one of these people that sleeps 3 or 4 hrs per night, or do you need your good 8 hours like me?I'm betting the former.Don't answer if its nosey,but I just want to compare you to other high work achievers I've known.

"I think most women see the issue of women's rights as being essentually about women's choices."

Okay, Greeny, but I want the choice to return to work whenever I see fit and I don't want to be criticised for it. I don't want to be told it is a male characteristic. It's not. I work for a living so I can provide for my children. This is a perfectly motherly thing to do.

And, also in hkeeping with the theme of choice=equality, I think men also should have the very same choices. And that means 6 weeks of 90% of his pay. Unpaid paternity leave (or a mesely £105 per week) is a joke.

someone said women like this THINK others admire them when really they pity them.

Xenia has at no point said she thought others admire her.

Can't see why anyone would pity her.

As it happens I do admire her.

Some people here are inferring stuff Xenia has never said.

Magic,
just because she is unusual does not mean she lacks perspective?

I think some of you are envious that she worked bloody hard and now reaps the rewards, so you feel you have to attack her and accuse her of having misplaced priorities and miossing out on her kids.

Xenia you come across as extremely well adjusted and intelligent and the reactions against you say more about the people who are posting .

Aderyn where has xenia been derisory about people aho make choices other than her own?

On other threads. I could find plenty of examples.

I have not criticised Xenia's choices at all.I don't admire or pity anyone whose views I read about on Mumsnet. I'd have to meet them in person to form a fair opinion.

Point us to them, please?

j, thanks.

I don't denigrate others but some SAHM are so keen to polish halos of self sacrifice and hone fake arguments of psychological benefits to their children they like to misread me. If it makes them feel better let them feel free.

I am not better than anyone. I'm the one with the failed marriage. I'm a Catholic. I think we're all equal.

But I have made a point for 22 years of mentioning how I've managed successfully to combine a large family and working full time because sometimes women aren't presented with enough positive images of happy working parents and children so it's good if there is a bit more positive presentation of couples where both in the couple work full time and the children seem to thrive.

I feel ever so sad doing this... but Uwila - you did ask.

OK ? on the ?should I leave my £250,000 job? thread Xenia says children having more than one carer is less risky than the baby being at home all day with a SAHM who shouts too much and is too indulgent.

She also says

The scale for measuring good care for a baby is 1st a Nanny, 2nd a nursery 3rd a mother 4th a drunken grandmother. Number 3 is suggested to maybe being alright if the only alternative is number 4

And

Apparently a lot of SAHMs shout and scream at their children all the time because they are resentful, tired and fed up and that?s a worse problem than children being put into a bad nursery.

And Xenia says that she doesn?t actually know any SAHParents.

I know that there are a handful of SAHM posters who say derisory things about working mothers. I would not defend those. There are a lot of working mothers and non-working mothers on this site who can see things from all sides. But, to say Xenia has nowhere made derisory comments about people who make choices different to her own, is a fallacy.

Xenia,

I would have cried to have met someone like you when I was looking for careers advice at 18 on which course to pursue at uni. As it turned out, I did choose law but against the backdrop of advice that I had to do conveyancing if I wanted a family. I did end up in the City but went pt into a fairly deadend legal support when dd arrived.

The difficulty I have with following your career/personal front is that I could not possibly leave on time everyday esp at 22 when I am just starting out, without completely scuppering my reputation as a serious player, man or woman. I would have to reach partnership first (ie early thirties) before starting a family.

Or have my children young and never see them on weekdays ...

bs, well men manage it without guilt, don't they and I know loads in the Citry who really do try hard to get back for story time and bed time at least 2 or 3 days a week and that's a reasonable compromise for many men and women but it's certainly not easy either being at home or working.

My brother who had two under 2 and is an NHS consultant is trying to prioritise time with children, insisting on leaving on time. But a lot depends on the job you do etc. These are issues for men as much as women and lots of couples with similar careers sit down and work out who will be home to relieve the nanny on which day. If parenting is a joint effort it can often be easier for the working mothers.

A - I don't really feel I have time for this but you have misquoted me a bit, so I have to go through it a bit but then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

"OK ? on the ?should I leave my £250,000 job? thread Xenia says children having more than one carer is less risky than the baby being at home all day with a SAHM who shouts too much and is too indulgent."

Yes I did say that and it's true, obviously not in all cases but one parent with the child for 12 hour days and no other adults around more risk of abuse. Now I may be the only mother in England who has shouted at their children more than I should from time to time, but I doubt it and if there's someone else around, you get a break and there's another influence to say - hang on there, that's not right or just to do things differently then the child probably does better for that. That's one view. Some mothers are home are perfect with their children and some working mothers manage to abuse their children even in the limited hours they have so obviously you cannot completely generalise but it's a valid point I should be free to make.

"The scale for measuring good care for a baby is 1st a Nanny, 2nd a nursery 3rd a mother 4th a drunken grandmother. Number 3 is suggested to maybe being alright if the only alternative is number 4"

I never said that. I do think nannies are better than day nurseries for children under 1. I certainly said that. Grandmothers, grandfathers and mothers and fathers can be and often are as good or better htan nannies. I have never said otherwise.

"Apparently a lot of SAHMs shout and scream at their children all the time because they are resentful, tired and fed up and that?s a worse problem than children being put into a bad nursery."

Come on, why lie about what I say when my views can be sufficiently controversial you've a lot of scope to criticise the views I express, not those you change? A lot of SAHMs (and working parents) shout at their children too much. It's true. Perhaps there should be web cams trained on us all for child protection reasons. I didn't say that was worse than a bad nursery although it depends on the parent. In the nursery there are standards and checks. At home mothers without qualifications or even inclination to look after children many of who are depressed (see ad inifinitum depression threads on mumsnet) who are not supervised have more capacity to abuse. In fact isn't most abuse of children by relatives at home, most murders etc?

But don't say that I've said all SAHMs are like that. Stay at home fathers and mothers who love it, are tender, gentle, caring, kind, loving, don't often shout, wouldn't swear at their children, don't smack them and do genuinely want to be there for their chidlren are obviously better than a nursery.

"And Xenia says that she doesn?t actually know any SAHParents." I never said that. I have come across some over the years.

Xenia, now you're back can you check out my 8.58 post please?

No Xenia - I did not misquote you.

links, we need links.

"Grandmothers, grandfathers and mothers and fathers can be and often are as good or better htan nannies. I have never said otherwise. "

oh its good to know we're almost as good, and in some cases, maybe even better than a Nanny .. for Gawd knows we aren't trained to do it are we?

Not my kids' drunken grandmother. Prefer my nanny any day.

it was so good I gave it its own thread

Here