High earning mothers

[ClarissaG]

I'm interested to start a discussion group for Mums and Mums to be who are juggling (or planning to juggle) a high flying career and motherhood. I loath to use the term 'Power Mums', but those who earn enough (£100k plus) to afford a team of help, but have the kind of pressures and working hour expectations that that level of salary brings.

I read the Mumsnet Guest blog with interest (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_blogs/1977242-Why-is-society-so-unsupportive-of-high-achieving-power-mums) but the comments less so.

Is there scope for a supportive group for such Mums with practical ideas, experiences and thoughts rather than judgement about whether we can 'have it all'?

I am mid thirties, a VC, 12 weeks pregnant and have not yet told my fellow partners. I want it all but have no idea if that is realistic or how my future is going to pan out!

Slice, yes exactly that. I think my rather forceful daughter made her views well known at the session - telling them it's common sense (and presumably her subtext was why waste our time telling us stuff we already know - that if you work hard you get on and if you slack off you do worse whether you're slacking off to be home drinking or playing golf or minding your child, your granny or ironing your spouse's shirts, whatever the reason).We are from a long line of strong working women. My grandmother even took herself off abroad to work in India in the 1920s and was widowed with a baby after only a year of marriage. The idea may not pull their weight at home and women do what they say and don't work is just not the culture of this family and I think my children are lucky that that is so. It is not so for everyone and sessions to help women get on given women still have a pathetically small representation of positions of power in the UK (about 20% only) means there is a lot of work to be done. Even on a voluntary thing I do which I chair I am not the only woman on it. You would have thought at least all the local part time working and not working women would be rushing to do it but it's all men men men except for me.

What I would have found helpful and they did not have when my children were small was City firms providing emergency nannies if yours is off sick or concierge services.

I am sure we both compromised on work a lot despite working full time in order to be with 5 children. We left work earlier than had there been no children. I work for myself now so it's all slightly different.

I also support the comments above that not all firms put you on a mommy track (or daddy track) by any means if you don't want to be. When we had our first child we both earned £7500 and that was the annual cost of the full time childcare so one of us worked for nothing. By continuing to work full time we preserved full time careers for the next 40 years so that one year of a bit of a loss when if you do okay at these kinds ofj obs income tends to go up and up was definitely worth it (never mind worth it for the time away from the babies as for a good few men and women being with 3 children under 5 for hours and hours every day as you will see at the weekends if pretty difficult. I would almost pay not to be with them 24/7 despite loving them and having had so many of them over such a long period - so for someone like me it was win/win to go back quickly although I can certainly remember needing and wanting to rush home on time to breastfeed and how hard it can be when a toddler clings to its mother's or father's leg even if you just want to leave the room).

an interesting read www.womensagenda.com.au/talking-about/opinions/women-must-hold-their-nerve-to-survive-male-dominated-fields/201401273489?utm_source=Women%27s+Agenda+List&utm_campaign=783857fb8e-Women_s_Agenda_daily_28_01_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f3750bae8d-783857fb8e-30648201

I have been lurking on this thread for a while. I haven't yet caught up with latest posts, but just wanted to thank laurabridges for recommending the Valerie Grove book 'The Compleat Woman' from the late 80s, which I bought for almost nothing on Amazon. Really fascinating and encouraging reading, and v. interesting in particular to have the perspective of women who had careers and (large) families from towards the end of their working lives - all the interviewees are in their 50s-80s.

Going to catch up with the rest now but any more reading suggestions gratefully received!

ok here's a question for those of you (and I imagine all of you are!) in senior leadership position. I've recently been promoted and am taking on a huge task (seriously - people are talking about me haivng to work miracles etc). The issue I'm battling with isn't so much the stuff that needs doing... it's more the 'undermining' (subtle or otherwise) from others, in particular the men.

Yesterday was my 'first day' in this new position even though I've been care-taking it for several months now. These men (other than my boss, the person I need to report to) seem to gain satisfaction in twisting things that I've said, saying things along the lines of 'well, even if we do support it, it isn't you that can approve it, it's going to be XXX'... and basically making me look stupid, incompetent etc.

A mentor (female very senior, much more senior than these men) has basically said 'NK, you need to be a new NK on Monday....' and well, CLEARLY SHE'S RIGHT!! but I can't at the moment transform my collaborative leadership style (where I consult others, ask their opinions and then do it) to a dictatorial, unilateral style which these men seem to favour.

any advice greatly appreciated.

NK, could you try to care less what those men say and think by changing your negative thoughts when they occur? Try to make it more like water off a duck's back and ignoring them most of the time. Look utterly unaffected by what they do or say. If anything however is put in an email by them to others which is inaccurate then of course correct that. I suppose you might also need to call them up on it just lightly e.g if they twist something say well that is an interesting slant you have put on it but it is not correct.

Also some men aren't subtle at all so they may not mean any supposed slights or even know they've said those things or not think you would be bothered by them. It certainly does not sound easy.

I can't at the moment transform my collaborative leadership style (where I consult others, ask their opinions and then do it) to a dictatorial, unilateral style which these men seem to favour

Why not? Seriously? Pick your battles but I see no reason to give instructions nicely, with a due date and success criteria.
Definitely call them on it. "Did you mean to be so rude?"

If someone twists your words, then simply say, "You have misunderstood me, I meant X&Y"

Be confident in your language - don't say things like "would you mind"

If you can lay your hands on a good negotiation book it will help you with choice of language. It is far more difficult for someone to contradict a direct statement of fact. "We are going to do X" than "perhaps we should"

Also, if the project is a total mess, consider how you are going to motivate a team of people who believe it is an insurmountable task and will throw out objections simply to avoid starting it. Bite sized chunks of work, celebratory doughnuts or beers. Whatever works. Persuade your line management to give you some budget for it.

A mentor (female very senior, much more senior than these men) has basically said 'NK, you need to be a new NK on Monday....' and well, CLEARLY SHE'S RIGHT!! but I can't at the moment transform ....

Your mentor clearly believes you can transform otherwise she wouldn't have given you the position (and mentors are generally right), you know what the problem is, so just have the confidence you can transform and bingo.....the results will come.

kalidasa - I'm waiting for mine in the post, looking forward to the read.

I'm reading about the woman mentoring schemes and post maternity support structures within large firms with a certain amount of envy (although I've done my time in big corporate, and appreciate that's one of the things I chose to sacrifice). I am in the start up / VC world in a very small partnership. Has anyone come across any 'City mum' groups / network in London along these lines? This forum is a huge help, but nothing like face to face. laurabriges mentioned there used to be one some time ago.

It's now all very real for me. A positive 12 week scan yesterday so time to discuss with partners / chairs. No point waiting, they have probably all guessed already (not long married, huge increase in size of boobs, no drinking!)

NK - there's a great book which I was recommended by a colleague called 'Difficult Conversations' by the academics who ran the Harvard Law School negotiation project. Well worth a look if you are involved in managing change and dealing with differences of opinion. I found it invaluable when working on organisational development in schools and child protection services- trust me, you can't get more recalcitrant than that!

thank you so much everyone. very helpful. I will look up those books. and yes, will start incorporating 'We will be doing X' type statements rather than 'what do you think?'.

I've just spent the last hour tidying up and clearing my desk - it helps! I was filing away and throwing away stuff. it feels good. I have another half hour then off to meet a friend for a meal. first one in many months. DH has the kids.

thanks again. will report back. in the meantime, any other tips greatly appreciated.

I started posting a long post about everything that went wrong when i came back post baby (to investment bank/senior role) but thats not really fair. The one thing I would say is that you do not know how you are going to feel about going back/working long hours etc- don't assume that you will want what you have now (or vice versa) but go with the flow.
Also as well as reconciling the fact that you have changed/have different priorities/commitments which is tricky enough - you are also trying to cope with having been outside of the office/workplace for a large period of time - which I think is tricky even without the former.
I would (in retrospect) sacrifice some aspects of maternity leave to make going back easier- for example I would do keep in touch/dial in to things - so as not to be forgotten - I would try and use childcare before going back for a bit just to get used to it ( i went back w/o ever having had DS away from me for more than 30 mins!)

I think maternity mentoring is a great idea - we do it internally/formally- but talk to colleagues who have been on maternity leave.

one thing that works for me is that DS has always gone to bed late - this means I have always done bedtimes etc (talking 930) - its not fantatsic in that I don't get much me time but I don't feel as guilty.
I also originally had him at nursery at work - which meant that the time pressure of having to get back at x o'clock wasn't as tight - I could also initially b/f during the day. Again it put on pressure that maybe wouldn't have been there if I had a nanny at home - but for me that didn't sit as well emotionally.

I am shocked (but pleased) that this thread has lasted since 26 January without everyone being stoned! I will read everything properly later.

I am lucky in that I've now set up on my own and so I'm probably more able to juggle than many others but I am really feeling the pressure to keep the money coming in. Having worked for many years in a very large law firm I saw many women fall by the wayside, some through choice, others not through choice. Its a very difficult role.

I'd like to join please!

I'm just about to return to work after almost a year's mat leave. Not sure how on earth it is all going to work out but looking forward to the challenge.

Haven't read the thread yet but will catch up now that my place is marked.

littleredsquirrel I do think that running your own business brings with it particular challenges, compared to working in a large organisation (although I've only worked in the public sector so I have no direct experience).
Part of the reason that my business has become quite successful is that I felt pressure to keep busy and earning. I only work part time (although probably 35 hours a week if all the evenings writing reports/sending messages are included) but on days that I have appointments booked in DH would generally take emergency leave (as he gets paid, or can juggle work from home, which I can't). He would also take time off for children's medical appointments etc if it clashes with a day in which I am seeing clients. I think that's fair. He's a partner in a big, city law firm- but he discovered pretty quickly that this (and his vastly superior pay) in no way allows him to avoid his paternal duties!

This thread has made me feel very positive about the possibilities of working in a successful career (whether highly paid or not) with young children. Given a combination of good childcare, supportive partners (and parents) and flexible leave and organisations it seems perfectly possible to pull this 'power mum' thing off!

As an aside, sixty years ago, my grandmother was working as a tenant farmer while raising 6 children. She never took a maternity leave, or had a nanny - she didn't have a career but she worked bloody hard. Women have always worked, historically it has been the norm for most women. We have so many choices now and so many opportunities to enjoy exciting, fulfilling work as well as leading happy family lives

NK, I think it's all about confidence. You wouldn't have been asked to lead the project if you weren't capable. I think when you are doing a difficult project being firm, authoritative and confident in your manner means that people are less likely to question your judgment. There is a time and a place to be consultative and collaborative in your approach and a time to be more directional. It sounds like your style heavily leans towards one style. I don't think the right answer is to veer right to the end but it sounds like you need to stamp your authority but every once in a while check in with others to get their perspectives. As you get more experienced on the project or in leadership you will get better at reading the situation and others (especially) the others to assess in the moment what style is best, for that moment. If you're anything like me, you will get it horribly wrong at times, but I found I learned more in those situations than I did when it all went right. Good luck!

Yes, I'm pleased. Usually threads about high earning women who like work and don't want to stay at home with their children seem to end up in a very negative type of fights with women with different desires which is a pity.

I agree with the comments about dropping I think and being definite in language. one of my 20 something daughters lsat week was telling me she had taken all the I thinks and similar uncertainties out of something she was writing having read the Sheryl Sandberg Lean In book (which actually I haven't read but just read about).

I sometimes feel those of us with children who work full time in high paid work we love are just either too busy to say much about it or else no one is interested - the press is only interested in showing women cannot work and have families or perpetuating the myth that all women have an ideal of 2 hours work a day and 14 of childcare.

Mind you my day tomorrow is not going to be easy - tube strike, trying to get to King Cross early to get to a meeting in the Midlands. I've got the London Underground song on continuous loop.

love that Underground song.

I agree the press seems only too eager to portray women who are "torn" or "guilty" about working. Apparently there was a recent study which asked people if they would give up work if they won the lottery. 94% of women said yes. 96% of men said yes. The Daily Mail's headline ran "94% of women would prefer not to work"...

I also wish there were more articles about fathers who decided to stop work, or go part time, or even just wished they could spend mroe time with their children.

Hello. Joining in. I haven't read every comment yet, but lots of points I can echo. In my case, DH is a SAHD which has been an absolute godsed in terms of allowing me flexibility. if he was working, a full time, flexible nanny would be absolutely essential. No questions.

The one thing I've really noticed now that DS is nearly 3 is that it took me a while to really get over the sheer exhaustion of the first few years. DS was a bad sleeper, I was working 60-70 hour weeks, with a long commute and i was just so tired all the time. The result was that for a while I thought I didn't really want the big job and the salary etc. It was only when things finally calmed down a little that I realised that I did, I just didn't want to be totally tired all the time.

As a result, one thing I will do different with DC2 is get a maternity nurse and more help from day 1. Admittedly, DH was still working while I was on mat leave so he'll also be around for DC2 more but I need to be less tired. If I'm less tired I can think about work and clients and issues more. And not take two years to get back to being myself.

Selfishly, the thing I find hardest now, is that I earn great money but it just disappears into the pot that is DS and our lives. And it can be quite depressing. On the plus side, it's really incentivised me to figure out how to be cleverer about the clients i take on and the work I do, and that is starting to pay off. So while I'm earning the same, I've got a much better work life balance now.

Shoesmacking - interesting perspective especially regarding the time it took for you to feel like you again.

We're getting a full time nanny who starts in a couple of weeks and I know we just couldn't make it work otherwise as DH works in an even higher pressure job with longer hours than I do. I've already told him that if/ when we have dc 2 the nanny will be staying on full time. I hope that way a) I'll have precious quality time to spend with each of the children; and b) we won't lose a nanny who has bonded well with DS and us as a family for the sake of me having 6-12 months off.

It is strange because a big part of me wanted to want to be a sahm. Turns out it is just not for me and although I will miss DS midweek I think I need more of a balance in my life.

If you are on linkedin the everywomanuk group contains info on networking groups.

That was for Clarissa in particular .

Shoesmacking, oh yes, the exhaustion! People For the first 14 months I was back at work, dc2 woke up at 11am, 2pm and 5am. People ask me how I got through that year, and I would love to know myself. I must have been using up years of stored up adrenalin!

BonaDea, our nanny stayed when I was on my second maternity leave. It meant I really enjoyed my time cuddling with dc2 and playing with dc1 but I could have a break and she would play with dc1. Plus she did things like make food, do the laundry and ironing etc. She realised that she took a step back while I was at home and then she carried on when I returned to work. I would definitely recommend it.

Too flipping right, mini pie.

I agree about the exhaustion. When our first three were 3,1 and a brand new baby and we both worked full time - that was the hardest time of our lives. Everything has seemed much easier since. There is a lovely photograph of all 3 ready for bed in nothing but a cloth nappy (in those days disposables were not very good 9they are 29/27/25 now) - 3 in nappies at night. Luckily their father did all the nappy washing and drying at that stage which included wringing out and rising dirty ones too. Now they are grown up it is lovely they have siblings their own age to share things with.

Then we had the last 2 10 years later and I was determined to try to get more sleep. I always woke the other twin if one woke to feed in the night and fed them both at the same time, I slept in the twins' room that time for the first year when they were breastfeeding - no point both of us being woken although their father did help when needed and then he did all the night waking from years 1 - 4 which was an awful lot - I would say as many nights as I did in year 1. I put them to bed at 7 after a feed and left them crying and had a shower which took about 10 minutes but seemed to help them realise it was night time although they didn't sleep very well for a good few years. None of them did and nor did any of their cousins. W didn't have a maternity nurse, wouldn't have been able to afford one with the first children and didn't want someone living in with the last 2 (who are now teenagers) but lots of people say they are a good idea. Actually a lot of the time we never had a spare bedroom to have anyone living in.

Hi

Joining in this interesting thread. I am a high earner, though I am on 80% at the moment, working 4d/wk.

Right now Im struggling to re-adjust after my second mat leave of one year. I got back to work in the Autumn after a massive promotion run and fail just before I went off before. I basically have to start again at the run for promotion (c. 2yrs) and I just cannot accept that so I am treading water. Its biting my arse that i got blocked by some power crazed leader (female with kids oddly) for unclear reasons.

Im pretty sure I am appearing mummy tracked although we would never imply that about anyone in my organisation.

I love reading this thread as it reminds me that it is ok to work and be a mother. Childcare isn't the end of the world. I am spending 90% of my time worrying about the effect my work and absence has on my children. I love the idea that Im being a role model but I am unable to reconcile this with myself at the moment.

Part of my issue is that my husband doesn't value the support any form of parent at home role. He struggles with the idea of me being 80% as he thinks its not important to the kids... ( I know....). Its massively important to my older child now who is at school and despite the fact that its probably harder being 80% than full time (as Im basically doing a full time role over 4 days getting paid 20% less) I love my time with the kids. I sometimes feel that I am battling against my husband to a certain extent. I wonder how I would feel about it if he was happy for me to not work ! ??.... I do actually love working and I don't want to cut my career off at this stage but its bloody hard balancing family life with work.

As a side point, I find myself quite resentful of the senior men in my company who have stay at home wives, huge houses in Chiswick and many kids. Their lives must be so much easier than mine!

From my end, the very best childcare has made all the difference to my returning to work vs last time. I have an excellent nanny and that has worked for me much better than nursery before as I feel as if my child is happier at home.

I could keep on chatting about this for days! Its a subject so close to my heart. I hope we can keep this thread going.

Shoe- I can empathise with the money disappearing point.

Our joint income isn't small but we are counting all our pennies at the moment due to costs of having a nanny. Its worth every penny but its hard to swallow sometimes.

Although I do know lots of people work as hard, if not harder and don't earn anything like as much....