High earning mothers

[ClarissaG]

I'm interested to start a discussion group for Mums and Mums to be who are juggling (or planning to juggle) a high flying career and motherhood. I loath to use the term 'Power Mums', but those who earn enough (£100k plus) to afford a team of help, but have the kind of pressures and working hour expectations that that level of salary brings.

I read the Mumsnet Guest blog with interest (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_blogs/1977242-Why-is-society-so-unsupportive-of-high-achieving-power-mums) but the comments less so.

Is there scope for a supportive group for such Mums with practical ideas, experiences and thoughts rather than judgement about whether we can 'have it all'?

I am mid thirties, a VC, 12 weeks pregnant and have not yet told my fellow partners. I want it all but have no idea if that is realistic or how my future is going to pan out!

In terms of looking after myself....
I take one evening a week and go to an exercise class. Children in bed at 7.30, class 8-9, then home and bed.
I make sure I go to bed early most nights 9.30/10 as I'm often woken in the night by the babies and get woken at 6am just now.
Hair/waxing/nails - lunch hour appointments are your friend.
I stopped eating sugar recently and my moods have been much more even - no post-lunch energy low. The useful side effect of this is that i have eaten just what I want of everything else and still lost about 1lb a week. I also avoid caffeine.
I will get back into cycling to and from work when the weather gets better.

Confession - I have dropped my daily bath/shower...down to every other day...

Hi there
May I join? I've recently been promoted and although no where near 100k salary, it's a senior management role and has high expectations tied to it. When not traveling, I'm only 5-10min away from work. School is the same distance, and nursery is just that bit further.

Today I was at work for a few hours, kids were with dh at swim classes and then home for lunch etc.

I love my job. And I love my kids. I hate the pressure (self imposed perhaps?) of having to bake cakes for school fairs. Received a letter about cultural evening, saw the date and scrunched up that letter as it was when I'm away in Brussels. Same for birthday party invites. I'm even away for Mothering Sunday this year!!!

We have a cleaner - shock horror. I cook most meals from scratch unless its a fish finger type meal. If I had the 100k income then I would get a daily housekeeper! Or at least one who comes once or twice a week who will clean, shop, wash bedlinen etc. that would make my life a lot easier.

Dh shares a lot especially since he works from home so if anything he's the one who's here for them every night. Again, more guilt.

I definitely don't bake, I learn volunteering to count the money for PTA events goes down well and plays to my strengths.

I do definitely get working mummy guilt the other day DD announced, "i almost called you by Miss Teacher's name, I think that's because I see her a lot more than I see you." Said with all innocence.

Mitchell I like your phrasing. Having a baby isn't like having a lobotomy, you're quite right, although my feminist side gets so frustrated at some of the women in my office who get knocked up and promptly stop trying, call in sick all the time etc. I have tried, as far as is possible, to act as normal as possible.

Can I ask perspectives from people about Keeping in Touch? I work just below director level and my part of the business is going under significant organisational change.

This has been my project since it's inception and I've managed it from the stage when we proposed it to the board and beyond. My position hasn't been covered in my absence and the project is in the implementation stage currently. I left a clear plan however with the lack of cover for my role, things are beng missed. The project will progress adequately in my absence but I'm really frustrated that some of the major opportunities of this change are not being optimised.

I'm conflicted about how to manage contact - as is my boss. I want to add perspective/experience into the mix but I also understand that my dipping in and out isn't necessarily helpful for those there full time. My boss is currently choosing what to communicate to me and has already made some decisions to leave me out of the loop on some pretty major decisions which has left me really unsettled. Some of what I'm aware of, I'm hearing second hand from my team (some of whom I see socially) which is obviously annoying him when he's chosen not to communicate with me (which has been a point of conflict in a usually good relationship.). I'm the most senior manager in our business to be on Mat Leave and there's a gap in everyone's understanding of how to manage this.

Does anyone have experience of this or similar? How do you manage Keeping in Touch? Do you try to continue to add value whilst off or have a clear break to let those in the business deal with it?

Looking after myself.... Well, I have long hair so I only visit the hairdresser 2-3 times a year. Don't dye it or anything (no greys yet and I'm hoping I've the strength of will to leave it when it greys!). I don't wear make-up, and don't do a lot of de-fuzzing, so it's a pretty basic routine. Probably once every year or two, I'll have a spa day with my best friend, I love those days. I also have quite a nice social life, go out by myself to concerts in the evenings and see friends quite often. I wish that husband and I had more "dates" though, we have both been so busy with work lately we have not spent a lot of quality time together and I spend too much time on MN.

I wash in the mornings - Husband washes whilst I get the children's breakfasts, then I wash whilst he gets them changed.

We have a great live-out nanny, great nursery, great cleaner, the best parents. I don't think I could do it without them.

In general, since I became a mum, my work environment has been supportive. I can work flexi-hours, also I am set up to work remotely. Travel budget restrictions mean that I haven't travelled too much recently, and there are a significant number of women in my organisation who work part-time - but I really wish that there were more women in senior positions who worked part time and ANY MEN who worked part-time. The last 18 months has been a real shocker in how hard I've had to push to try and get any sort of work-life balance, it has probably skewed my perspective of my work, which I was happy with previously.

I gave up having my hair done locally and do it in lunchtime I london now.

I don't colour it so only need an hour.

I have never baked a cake for a school fair in about 29 years of being a mother! My girls (now in 20s) saw it as a badge of honour that their mother had an important job and was not remotely interested in baking. They joke even now that if they had to take a witch costume into school their father or I would pick up a black sack, cut 2 holes in it and hey presto, worst costume in the class - illustration of the superiority of their parents in a sense... it's all in the mind really (my family are mostly psychiatrists).

Always try to avoid guilt. You can change your thoughts. There is a lot free on line about that. If the negative thought comes just cast it aside and think of positive things. People do not have to be a victim to negative thoughts. Small children will always try to manipulate parents. Children with parents at home do it too - screaming if you want to leave them to go to the loo or grabbing your leg even if the mother is at home all day just because she wants to leave them with granny so she can go to the dentist. It is not specific to working parents at all. This week my 4th child said I had booked a meeting at 5pm because I hated him. Later I joked that he had said it was because I did not love him. He said - it's much worse than that - it's hate and then he discussed the difference between not loving and hating (jokingly) and I laughed. He's 15 and happens to like it that on that day I usually collect him direct from tennis. Tough. If they have to change things like that it makes them appreciate when you do do it for them and his older brother was back in time anyway so I suppose even with children who are older they try that kind of thing on but given how happy and amenable my younger two are there is no evidence at all of hate or lack of love. They are lovely but as you can see not beyond seeking to induce guilt (although they fail with me).

I never did keeping in touch as I was only away 2 - 5 weeks so it did not arise. If I were advising someone on that I would keep in touch as much you can about everything they let you and go in, but I've no experience of real maternity leave so cannot really comment. I would have thought it best for them to realise you still remain really interested in work and are definitely coming back and don't want to be kept out of the loop on things.

(3under3... snap when we had 3 under 3 I also moved to having a shower every other day. I have to remind myself now how busy things were at that stage now I have the luxury of older teenagers and there is time even to read the Sunday papers every Sunday. I still dye my own hair for £7 at home which takes about 15 mins to put it on then disappear to do something I want to or work and then wash it off but every person men and woman has to decide what are important things to keep them sane - I was never a hair dresser fan but many are)

Thanks laura and others for telling me not to do the guilt thing!! It is getting better but sometimes it just gets too much.

Re maternity leave - I took 6 months both times. First child I was signed off at 30weeks because I had placenta praevia and didn't know that so had contractions etc. work was very good and basically told me not to worry (having said that I was trying desperately to hand things over). Second time, just before I gave birth (but was already on leave) I was organising a symposium, getting senior people together and got it submitted. Got it accepted whilst nursing my child and then scrambled to get ready for it to happen 2 months after I returned.

I did use KIT days but you probably need to check with your org hoe they actually apply it. Some would say yes we'll pay you your day rate even if you come in for 2 hours, others will say you can tack on the KIT days at the end of your mat leave... Etc. just check and see if it's worth it. I generally felt it was worth it.

I think another thing I've realised having spoken to the rare v senior woman around my workplace is that it does make a difference if you show that you are keen/passionate about your job. By that I mean, yes have the kids but like previous people have said, there's no real need to talk about heartburn and sciatica all day long. Keep work to work and home to home I think.

Of course if it's an emergency etc do let work know but otherwise, there's no need I feel (I had a period of time when my Dc who was only 4 had to be admitted to gosh and it was rather traumatic period for all of us. I told my boss and several others and everyone rallied. And the place did not fall down!!).

I have female colleagues who constantly go on about how 'I've just returned from maternity leave so I don't really know what's going on...' Or constantly make reference about their children and I think the feeling is that these women aren't too committed to work. Probably not very fair (by mn standards) but unless both women and men talk about the kids all the time, I think it may be better if women don't do it...

And I do wish too that there are more senior women in my work place. The CEO of my place (female) is very acutely aware that the number of senior women here is very low compared to men. And when you break it down into job roles it gets even more ridiculous... Where men get the more glamorous or more prestigious senior positions, and women get the support role. This isn't the case but for example, the director of finance or director of strategy is male, director of hr is female.

Bake sales are a really inefficient way of raising money anyway - donate an extra £20 a year instead!

Hello all, really interesting reading this thread. I was wondering whether / to what extent any of you have shared this kind of advice with others at work - do any of your workplaces have any kind of mentoring programmes? The reason I ask is because when I was working at a City law firm, we had a talk on 'women in the workplace' from a couple of the female partners and a senior HR person. About 30 women in their 20s/30s attended. It was useful in parts on how they had managed but most of the talk amongst us for days afterwards was about one of the partners who'd told us how whenshe had kids 20 years ago there was no mat leave, she was back within 2 weeks, she always prioritised work meetings or work social events, had never been to a school nativity play, travelled for work at weekends, etc. Even appreciating that things have changed now and there is mat leave etc, and the other female partner had had a different experience, it left most of us a bit shocked and hers was the story that stuck in my mind afterwards. So, reading the more helpful and realistic advice above, I was wondering why there aren't more/better opportunities for women to share this kind of information at work. Rather than put women off even attempting to combine a high level job with a family, it would surely be better to give constructive advice and help. I don't know how this would be achieved though or when - it would be helpful to have this kind of discussion before getting pregnant but very difficult to manage that.

Sorry - disappeared for a couple of days.

Thanks Business and Laura. I agree that I should carry on as normal until I am (fingers crossed) pregnant. The problem with my projects (property development) are that they can take anything from 6 months to 2 years - and you rarely know how long they will be when you take them on! I think I need to play it by ear.

However, assuming a healthy pg and birth it would be entirely possibly to take the least amount of time off and throw money at the problem in the form of live in nanny or similar if needed.

I guess that is a major benefit of being a high earner...

Slice, I hope it doesn't put younger women off to know that some older women (and I will put myself in that category as I have teenagers now and two daughters in the City) took less time off than many women do now. I don't think it was just that we had fewer maternity rights - the 6 weeks at 90% pay was the same then as now. It was also because we preferred being in the office and then evenings with the children to all day every day at home doing in effect what is often boring domestic work.

I don't find doing an hour's work any worse than an hour hoovering at home and I prefer my work to putting on the washing machine. My daughter was at a women in the City talk recently organised by her work. I am not sure it helped her as she thinks it's all common sense - if you lean in and work hard you do well and if you don't you don't which applies whether you're male, female, 20 or 60 but I think it's good firms are at least trying to address the issues.

Read NK5's advice and take it to advice. It's absolutely crucial. Again I would however say it was common sense and it was what came naturally to me 20 years ago. If you go on and on about your health and children all day every day to clients and colleagues rather than things those other people might have in common with you that's not a great plan. A lot of women do themselves down too much all the time too which is a slightly different point.

Even now I will often say I have a meeting rather than I cannot do the other meeting at XYZ time because I need to collect a child. And on a daily basis as do all men and women who work you prioritise what is most important - the child rushed to hospital and all parents would rush to be with them. The important new client meeting might well take precedence over taking the child to school on a particular day. In fact even those without children have to balance every day what works takes precedence - my daughters are having to learn that now in their 20s - everyone wants their work done at the same time and all think it's important and every day you decide who you let down and what is a priority. Same applies when you put children, elderly parents and a spouse and your own hobbies into the mix.

I am really interested in my work. It is as much fun as when I started. I hope I will keep doing it until I am 80 and get as much pleasure from it. I am also very interested in my children and my hobbies too. I feel terribly lucky to have been able to have 5 children and such a lovely career and life and most of all to be both happy and healthy.

I'm in a city job, had first child 15 months ago. A few thoughts:

• I couldn't have taken a very short maternity leave. DD was premature (partly I suspect due to work stress) and was in hospital for 3 weeks, then would only sleep on my chest for the following 3 months, work would have been very difficult until she was at least 4/5 months. What I'm saying is, you can plan a short ML if you want but have a back up plan in case you have a difficult birth or difficult baby.

• I don't think it's at all necessary to take a very short maternity leave unless you are self employed or in a quasi self employed role (own clients etc). A a previous poster said, people quickly forget how long you took, so don't pressure yourself into a short leave for the sake of it.

• A few have said they took a short leave not for job reasons but because they didn't enjoy being home with the baby. I empathise - I found the first 6 months a combination of very stressful and very dull. But I'm glad I took a long leave because the later months were so much more enjoyable. If I'd gone back early it would have (in my case) felt like I was running away from being with dd iyswim rather than making a positive choice to go back to work. I also needed the easier later months of ML as recovery time from the gruelling early months, before going back to work.

• I agree with not talking about your pregnancy and (once back) your DC more than necessary. I wait till someone asks - and even then I limit myself to a sentence. TBH I don't find this hard as I don't think about dd much when I'm at work. (I also don't think about work much when I'm home).

• Like a previous poster, I have managed to stay in a highly paid job while going part time (4 days a week) and - so far - not working too much on my days off. For me this is ideal. However this does mean I am not on promotion track which at present I don't mind but I hope I retain the option to go back on it in the future if I want. we'll see. Personally I am not ambitious for promotion and status, I just want to be paid well and to do interesting work. Appreciate others may be more ambitious though.

• A nanny makes things SO much easier than a nursery. And a cleaner. If you can afford these options then don't hesitate, it will make it so much easier to keep up with work and have the odd moment to relax rather than spending your spare time doing housework.

• KIT days - again it depends on your job. I didn't do any and I don't think there were any ill effects, however if you have clients you need to keep in touch with, or your work is very political, it may be worthwhile. even if you don't do any KiT days, it's worth keeping in touch unofficially with a friendly colleague who will tell you of any changes/politics etc.

• Sliceoflime - my firm has recently introduced a maternity leave mentoring/counselling type programme where an external adviser will chat through with you any questions and issues that may be concerning you re your leave and re integrating. they also offer childcare finding help (for a fee). It was helpful for me - in contrast to what you describe, they we're very positive about asking for part time. I agree that it's not always helpful for senior women to portray the "back at my desk after two weeks" approach as that can imply you need to do that to succeed.

• Letting go of guilt is important. I don't feel guilty about leaving DD with her nanny, I know she's having a great time and probably better than she would with me. I also know I'd be a grumpy mum if I was at home full time.

Hi business
I totally agree that bake sales are highly inefficient but apparently that's the way things are done at this school my child is in! They aren't even very good at selling the stuff as last year a mum from the class made really lovely cakes and somehow they didn't get sold as the cake stall was obscurely located such that no one actually knew where it was!! She ended up paying them the money to take it back. I would have totally flipped at that point!

It's the same thing though in my village. They hold regular coffeemornings and cake sales etc. we don't go only because we are not free on Saturday mornings... But the ones I've been to they sell whole cakes very nicely decorated (Almost like the patisserie Valerie type!!!) for £5!! Omg! A steal!

Hmm - lessons I have learned two children down the line in a senior role in the City.

The hard ones:
Once you have a baby you are perceived as on the mummy train. I went from being nominated as high performer/train for senior exec role in financial institution to being on a redundancy list while on mat leave. I really regretted working up going into labour with that role, and I was totally unprepared for an at risk/redundancy process to slap me around my self deprived face.
So my top tip before going on mat leave is to assume you are not going back, have copies of any files/contacts etc/ resume up to date / and copies of appraisals at home. It will help with any arguments / interview processes.

You won't get the time back. I lived and breathed my job and never got that pre-labour massage and pedicure. I certainly didn't have time for it with No2 who arrived earlier and threw my lessons learned (take time off before due date) out the window anyway

Plan for the unexpected but definitely communicate your intention to return and when that is.

Check your HR policies - they may insist that you use up accrued leave before your return. Your 6 months off may well turn into 7+ when you take that into account.

In my view give yourself 3-6 months mat leave. If you have a terrible sleeper [unless money really is no object and you can arrange a night nanny too] then until you sort that out, you will function poorly at work. With No 1 I was back and on a plane long haul at 6 months, with No 2 I was back part-time from home at 3 (No 2 was a solid little sleeper)

When you do go back to work, people will be surprised that you are back already even if it has been the longest 6 months of your life at home. Or they will have moved on and no-one will know who you are. Either way, everything will mostly still be the same and some of the stuff that was "urgent" before you left, will still be going on.

Live as close to work as you can manage. A shorter commute will mean you actually see your children Mon-Fri.

Enjoy the travel - it's a good nights sleep with room service. No point in beating yourself up about it. Leave time at the airport to pick up a gift for the suffering spouse at home who can't run out for a takeaway/pint of milk.

Find a good source of ready meals eg: Cook. and stash in the freezer for the nights when only one of you is there. By the time your kids are in bed and you are ready to eat, you'll just want something you can shove in the oven while you do bedtime stories.

Have low expectations of Skype/Facetime if your kids are under 4. They'll wave at you briefly and then beetle off to do something else.

Exercise is a means to an end - walk/cycle to work / run around the park with the pram while on mat leave. Whatever works.

Time for self beautification comes out of work time. Early/late/lunchtime apts are the only times you will get to do this. Go low maintenance on highlights etc.

KIT days are a useful way of reminding everyone that you are still around and exist. Use for strategy sessions like budget prep etc so you are not wasting your time. When joining these sessions though it is really tricky to take time out to go and express breastmilk when everyone is having a working lunch with some sandwiches.

Bfing is a really useful motivator to get home on time in the evenings from 6-10 months. By 8 months you'll probably be weaning anyway but it helps in the first few months back to have that discipline.

Have them as close together as you can manage - it doesn't get logistically any easier until they are all walking and talking.

Be good to your nanny - you could probably never do her job as well as she does it. It's quite a long day with little adult conversation so make the time to chat and appreciate her efforts. Recognise that and be happy that your kids love her/him.

A nannyshare can be more hassle than it is worth.

Don't have kids with someone who is not prepared to pull his weight. Paying for extra staff is not the same - someone still has to manage them.

Grow a thick skin. Everyone will judge you for working full-time with small children.

When you have finished having children and they are heading to school age, consider moving to a new firm to kickstart your career again.

really useful stuff oscar, thanks. Especially about nannyshares (I had been considering it but had the gut feel it would be a lot of hassle) and moving firms after the toddler years are done.

Really useful stuff, thanks mini and oscar

An NCT mate in a civil service management role, rather than a stupendously high earning role negotiated a part-time return to work [3-4 days a week for 6 months] to use up the stupid amounts of leave that she'd built up while on mat leave. Wish I'd thought of that for the first few months - a 9 day fortnight would have been lovely (with a 10 day nanny .

Sign up in advance to an emergency nanny service if your employer doesn't prompt you to/provide. On the hopefully rare occasion that your nanny is ill, it will have prompted you to have an emergency pack ready with house keys and alarm codes, dietary/health instructions, up to date routine(s) for child etc etc.

Try to work from home at least one day a fortnight but preferably once a week. It's a lifesaver as you will also still have to attend vaccinations and the odd healthcheck, but you can also keep on top of your inbox and have a meeting free day.

Or even better send the husband to the vaccinations - we often did.

I'm in this boat. I have a 10 month old and went back to work in the city when she was 7 months.
It wouldn't be possible without our lovely FT nanny, cleaner, and ocado delivery.
I find it terribly tiring and the sad fact is every weekend I feel like I'm trying to make up to my daughter the fact I'm not there in the week. Through I know she's being cared for very well I miss her so much.

My advice is get as much help as u can including a night nanny if you go back before the little one sleeps through just to give you a chance.
I dedicated my time while on maternity to getting my daughter sleeping through and am very grateful for that now!

Hi OP / all

Lots if of interesting advice and thoughts on this thread... I would echo the majority of it.

One point that I don't think has come up yet: There was a fantastic programme on radio 4 last Wed night, it was the final part of 'bringing up Britain' series and focused on working mothers.

There was a wide range of qualified speakers and the tone was generally positive (much like this thread!)

I'd recommend a listen to anyone pondering what their career looks like after childbirth.

I'm sure it will be available as a podcast.

AB

Thanks for replies to my question, Laura it is good that firms are addressing this as an issue not expecting it to be magically resolved. You said it seems obvious to your daughter, she has seen how your family have managed to make things work so it probably is obvious to her how to get things organised - I think it's not so obvious if you haven't grown up with that. Minipie I think that kind of advice service is exactly what's needed, it sounds great - a friend of mine had a similar advisor through her work and they met before she went on leave, and before she came back, to talk through what arrangements they had made and how it would work out. I think that kind of one to one advice / opportunity to talk things through must make a huge difference and it should be more widely available.

I know that lots of women do automatically get thought of as "mummy" track material in some places when they have had children, but I would hate anyone to think that this is the norm. With the birth of my children, I have had 2 lots of maternity leave in the last 5 years and my career path has not changed at all. We have lots of benchmarking data in my firm, so very easy for me to see and compare. I am more senior now than I was 5 years ago, and I earn significantly more (almost double) what I did 5 years ago.

In that time, 4 of my team members have also had babies, and while each had 9-12 months off on maternity leave, each of them stepped back in exactly where they left off. It is fair to say that they have made compromises, the first year or so after their return, which means that they haven't taken advantage of all of the opportunities available to them, but it has been a decision that they have made. One of them has been promoted, and in fact when we did the promotions last summer, she was first on the list.

I say this, not to be disparaging about previous posters comments, but just to highlight that it is not like that everywhere!

My firm does have a formal mentoring scheme for women who have returned from maternity leave, and I have provided a lot of support and advice to the 4 women that I mention above. It's an interesting position to be in, because we have the same problems - lack of time, lack of sleep and pulled in many directions, but I have the luxury of being able to throw money at the problem. What I am able to provide in a mentor capacity, is both a sympathetic ear and advice on things that from my experience they can do differently.

One of my senior women (earns approx 80k FTE) really struggled with a non-sleeping child, working 3 days a week and married to a trader who basically is never ever there and expects her to do everything. She was adamant she didn't want to be on mummy track (and she said this a lot in our mentoring conversations). Since ditching him is not an option , I encouraged her to pay for more help at home and stop looking at it as coming out of her income and also considering upping to 4 days a week if she wanted to relieve the pressure on her.