Childcare costs are incredible, how do so many women afford to work

[Zealey]

Hi, I'm sure many people have asked this question before, but I've just seen a piece on the BBC News about how childcare costs are often thousands of pounds a month for multiple kids.
Here in London my local nursery charges £750 per child per month. Considering many return to work mums will be typically part-time and in low paid jobs, HOW does ANY make it pay? Surely not every mum in London is on £40k+ a year.
I'm sincerely curious.
Thanks.

I am the other end of the childcare, being a childminder isn't easy either, I live in Greater Manchester and I charge £30 per day with all meals included and that is from 7-7.30 am till 6 pm. I am NVQ Level 3 qualified with Paediatric First Aid and Safeguarding certificates amongst others which I work very hard to get.

I am working from home because we get no tax credits (my youngest is 10) due to my dh's wage and have no family to help so I cannot afford to go out to work.

I do offer siblings a reduction in fees to help parents as I can understand how difficult it is.

PieMistress have a look at this page. It says it's generally £41k for a couple. But it's very complex and the page has a link to a calculator. But a lot of people don't qualify despite what the goverment says. (If you are in London or the SE). In that case, check with you and your DH employee on childcare vouchers. This is for the slightly better offs, or the unfortunately in the SE. (You didn't mention you are already getting the vouchers in your posts).

BTW, if I'm in your shoes, I'll pull your DS out of nursery during maternity leave. Maybe after one month of birth or something.

I don't earn anything like 40k and as a result make a very tiny amount of money after childcare is deducted, but the fact is we need that tiny amount so its actually worth it.

We couldn't afford to pay for nursery for two children so as a result if we have another it will be with a larger gap.

The people I know who have young children and are a bit better off generally use a combination of nurseries and family help.

bluerodeo - everyone is entitled to 15 hours free childcare for 3 year olds (at the moment anyway). It's not a means-tested benefit.

I think each family has to factor in what will be lost and gained by one person working or not working. Long term of course.
For some, what they will gain in the long term will make it worth using expensive child care.
For others, the long term losses will be small anyway, so they may not think it worth it when factoring in non-fiscal gains.

www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/TaxCredits/peoplewhohelpothers/Entitlementtablesfortaxcredits/Youworkandalsohavechildren/DG_174789

so according to this if you have 2 kids in childcare and earn 35k you can claim 9525 pounds from tax credits for childcare?

Why are you asking OP?

Seems your threads are a tad contradictory.

I live opppp north and pay nearly that for 6 hours a day for one child (we pay hourly). So I'd say, for London, that's really cheap.

I take advantage of breakfast club at school (7.45 to 8.45 @ £3 a day) and the 15 hours free now she's at playschool. It will also be easier when she goes to school in Sept as she'll only need childcare for 3 hours a day.

Both myself and my husband pay into childcare vouchers of £243 per month tax free which makes a big difference.

In the begining, taking into consideration the cost of fuel getting to work, it did feel as though I was working to keep my child in childcare. But, the older she gest the easier, and cheaper it gets. Plus I don't want to be a sahm (somedays I really wish I had it in me) and I wanted to keep my career going.

Thanks onelittlebabygirl will check that link out. DS loves nursery and I don't think for his and my sanity I could look after him and a newborn for 5 days a week on my tod. I also know after DS's (horrific) birth i'll be having a CS. (both DP & I take the childcare vouchers through work).

It's a difficult decision as the nursery is also very popular so will have to get him back in when I go back to work, unborn DC is already on their waiting list for Spring 2013! Will probably keep him in 3 days (which would be 2 'free' days of the 15hrs and then one more).

There is never an easy decision to make re: childcare. Sometimes devil you do, devil you don't (is that the saying?).

I live in NE Scotland and it's, on average, between £40 - £50 pounds a day for nurseries.

PieMistress we only have one DD in nursery atm, and it's the same dilemma as you that I'm always thinking if I go on maternity again. It'll be preferable for DD to stay at the nursery. But financially it'd be very very tough when you are down to SMP. I'm working FT so it'd be for 5 days a week. I think I've come to the conclusion that she'll forfeit her FT space and re-join the waiting list. And we might just let her go for what my DH's childcare vouchers, ie £243 can cover (or a bit more).

Oh I mean I won't want her in FT during maternity pay. But 3 mornings might be nice. But it's tough when you are only £500 a month.

And the waiting lists here are very long too. We signed up when I was 20 weeks to get a space in the toddler room.

I think it's an outrage that childcare isn't all tax deductible. I think it's actually quite reasonable that good quality childcare is fairly costly- after all, what is more precious than your child's wellbeing?

BUT as childcare is a direct cost of working, it should be tax deductible in the same way that if you're employing a chauffeur or Gardener it would be.

I also think the main issue is not that childcare is too high, it's that wages are too low. If there was a much bigger gap between benefits and minimum wage, then people would find it easier to make work pay. Housing costs are also a major issue.

Having said that, I do think we need to acknowledge that advances have been made in the right direction, with tax credits and free hours. I know I would have given my right arm to have any help towards childcare 18 years ago- and this was at a time when mortgage rates were far higher than now. Having said that, things like fuel and food are astronomical now.

So- definitely a far better situation with childcare in 2012 than at any time previously- but still room for improvement

onelittlebabygirl did you know that your employers have to pay your £243 child care vouchers for you if you only get SMP (lots online about it). Because you will be on government benefits with SMP your employers have to stump up that cash on your behalf, AFAIK they cannot stop it and you don't earn enough with SMP to pay it (there are threads on it under Employment). My chum told me this and I was gobsmacked (as up until last week I was only going to get SMP). So effectively you will be getting an extra £243 a month on top of your SMP (they don't seem to broadcast this though!)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/employment_issues/1136820-Employer-refusing-to-pay-childcare-vouchers-during-SMP

I am glad the report highlights a lack of provision for children with disabilities - its the reason I cant go back to work.

A gardener for your home is not tax deductible. If you are employed paying for your own lifts to work is not tax deductible. Your business suits are not nor your lunches. However if once you are work you have necessary journeys then those are tax deductible as they relate directly to work. The trouble with making child care deductible is that where do you stop? Someone with old parents they need to look after has the same issue. Someone with a horse or dog has too.

piemistress I didn't know that at all. I thought I simply won't be able to afford vouchers while on SMP. I will have a look in the thread you linked. I assume it should cover the last 3 months of unpaid maternity.

Surely if you employ a gardener it's tax deductible in the same way that an employer is not wages out of net income, but gross?

Tbh I think there is a very clear distinction between childcare and the other examples you give, Xenia. Children are dependents. Elderly parents aren't. If they need care, this can be self funded (I know this raises another big issue of whether elderly people should have to sell their homes to pay for care, while if you squander all your money before hand, you'll get looked after!)

At the end of the day, we are not responsible for our parents in the way we are for our children. Elderly parents can buy in help. Our children cannot pay for their own childcare! Childcare is a direct expense of working. If you don't work, you don't need it. Clothes I buy for work are not tax deductible- but I can buy as many or few as I choose. I can go to Armani or primarni! Childcare is different- you can't just pay for less days when you're working all week

Childcare is expensive. That is why we have over a 3 year gap between children and no family around to help. My husband helps with child are costs as we felt it was better for me to work part time than not at all. Maintaining skills, confidence etc. I work part time and am self employed so try where possible to work when I have child are which can include evenings. It is expensive but with planning have kept costs to a minimum. School holidays I do find very costly as need child care for 2. Low incomes do get help with tax credits. It is those just above the threshold who must feel very stretched.

In the three and a half years my dd was at nursery (full time) the fees went up from £488 per month to £700 a month. My income stayed exactly the same. In fact my income has stayed exactly the same for nearly eight years. I'm so glad she's started school and childcare is minimal by comparison, if she was just starting nursery now there would be no possible way of affording it.

I would much prefer a flat tax of 20% and no distortions for childcare pension contributions or anything else.

If you are employed you can deduct expenses which wholly, exclusive and necessarily related to your employment. Your garden at home is not that and never has been.

If you are self employed the test is if the expenses are wholly and exclusively relating to self employment. I'm self employed.Even for me the gardening is not deductible. However if I travel between two customers that expense the only purpose of which is work is deductible. If I buy smart shoes only worn for work as they also serve the purpose of keeping my feet warm they are not tax deductible.

We choose to have chidlren. We choose to keep a horse or a dog. That is not something that relates to work so has never been tax deductible.

What is very important is women should never see childcare cost as something only relevant to them. Seek to out earn the husband. Make him find childcare and discuss it even befoer the chidlren arrive. Do not get saddled with the sexism which says childcare and its cost is something which only affects women.

Can anyone tell me if the free nursery places once the child gets to 3, are available to use to pay an Ofsted registered nanny? With 2 under 3, it is cheaper for us to use a nanny than nursery.

One thing we can be certain the coffers are totally empty and the country cannot even afford that easily to service its debt so there is unlikely to be much money to be thrown at costs of childcare. Low tax and abolition of allowances and deductions increases the tax take and ensures there is little incentive to try to reduce what you pay and is a better way to go.

The "free nursery places" wich in our case we had for one year when the twins were 4 I think amounted to a £600 deduction (which was tiny) off the cost from their private mornings only nursery school - it was qutie neat a labour government introducing tax relief for private school fees. I laughed. It is not available for nannies. We also had a nanny as the morning 3 ohours at nursery school was a tiny part of the working day.

When we had 3 under 3 we found a day nanny at our house was the best option as we both worked full time and did not want someone living in the house. It works better than 3 nursery places and is cheaper and you control that person who may well stay when they start to to go school and take them there and do school holidays and stay late if yo're working late. It's much the better option.

SmileItsSunny - no, it isn't free childcare it's free nursery education, which is why the funded hours are term time only. Some childminders are approved to provide early years education, but not nannies.