Childcare costs are incredible, how do so many women afford to work

[Zealey]

Hi, I'm sure many people have asked this question before, but I've just seen a piece on the BBC News about how childcare costs are often thousands of pounds a month for multiple kids.
Here in London my local nursery charges £750 per child per month. Considering many return to work mums will be typically part-time and in low paid jobs, HOW does ANY make it pay? Surely not every mum in London is on £40k+ a year.
I'm sincerely curious.
Thanks.

flangelina - I think it all depends we are on about 24kish not sure yet as dh might be getting an extra 1000 or so bonus and we get a large amount of it.

I see your point Xenia (re considering childcare costs to come 100% from my salary rather than DH's) it's odd but just my way of thinking of it. When I met DH I earned more than him, now he earns a little bit more. Although I am a professional and have spent years training and working to get to where I am, I also have this odd old fashioned thing where I see my job as less important than DH's since we've had children which makes it v hard to balance as I do the drop off and pick up at nursery and look after DD when she is off sick... making me look somewhat like a part timer!

We paid between £2150 and £2250 PCM. That was for two children in Full time nursery in Brighton.
This was a third of our joint take home salary per month.
We decided to live there, have children and continue to work.

The care was excellent. It was expensive but we knew that before embarking...

I would like the nursery staff to be paid more if I'm honest.
I'd also like to own a nursery

In my view it's not that child care is to much money it's that employers are not very flexible and it's still very uncommon to meet people who job share or work flexi time

Why is is so important that a report Is written with in the hours of 9-5 when it can just as easily be done at 7 on the kitchen table whilest the kids are in bed I actally find I muck about far more when I worked in the office when I had the coffee bar, book swap sation and Gossiping colleges to distract me also when I was always looking at my watch at 2 when having a meeting thinking please wind this up so I am not late for the school run

When I worked flexi time i feel I was far more productive

MrBoJangles - I'm a lawyer who had twins and although I don't think I'll ever make partner now, in fact I probably won't be promoted at all beyond my current level - I still have a job that pays relatively well and doesn't involve travelling all over the world / weekend weekends. Of course there are City lawyers who do that (my sister being one of them) but as other posters have said, generally speaking, people only do jons like that for a finite about of time before they take a step back - with or without children.

There has to be a realistic expectation that your life after children will change - yes the finance has a big impact but so does the responsibility.

That sounds amazingly sexist to me Angel. I didn't know people still had views like that. Why do you have those views? Was it the type of home you were brought up in?

MrBo, I also have twins and earn a heck of a lot less than a lawyer yet realistically we haven't had anywhere near that loss of salary either

I took a seven-year career break. It has cost me a huge amount in terms of career status and current earning power. With hindsight, I'm not sure it was worth it.

Hi xenia what do you mean by type of home? My mum was working in a bank and my dad worked as an engineer surveyor. We had au pairs / nannies. After the third baby was born my mum gave up work and started her own business working from home. My mum was generally the one who cooked, cleaned etc.

Mandy I'm a lawyer too, left the magic circle six years ago and find in house work much more accommodating re leaving on time (altho I check my blackberry in evenings and sometimes work from home out of hours but don't mind).

I am pretty sure that all children are entitled to 15 hours from the term after their third birthday but has to be with an 'Early Years' provider. Once Kids are at school CC Costs drop dramatically so hang in there anyone struggling - My childminder is worth every penny and more reasonable than the Nursery my two Sons (5 and 8 years) used to be at. Due with third babe soon and I have to pay a 25% retainer once baby reaches six weeks old and 25% for my Boys during my maternity leave to keep the places but I actually think that is very reasonable seeing as it will be hard to fill the space short term. Make sure you investigate all possibilities and find out if you can get childcare vouchers which give you tax relief. It is hard but look at the long term - we don't have much choice and childcare is the most important thing you will ever pay for.

I jus wondered why you had these views which most women don;t

"I see your point Xenia (re considering childcare costs to come 100% from my salary rather than DH's) it's odd but just my way of thinking of it".

Why would any woman see the children as something she pays for and their doesn't and why would a husband accept that sexism?

" When I met DH I earned more than him, now he earns a little bit more. Although I am a professional and have spent years training and working to get to where I am, I also have this odd old fashioned thing where I see my job as less important than DH's since we've had children which makes it v hard to balance as I do the drop off and pick up at nursery and look after DD when she is off sick.."

Why do you see your job as less important than his? Do you think women aren't as good at work as men or that it is right and proper men earn more and have better positions and promotion at work? How can you possibly feel your job is less important than his? It is just about the only time I've ever seen anyone write an attitude like that on mumsnet. I find it extraordinary unless I suppose you are from a culture like Saudi or a religion where two women's evidence counts as that of one man and women are lesser like that.

Another one struggling with fees here. Our nursery just increased from £950 to £1085 for 20month DS.
DH is in full time study (after being made redundant) so can't look after him and it all has to come out one salary. We're only just covering childcare, mortgage and groceries.
We don't really have much of an option though - if I didn't work we'd have nothing coming in at all.

I think in most cases, as long as childcare isn't leaving the family unit as a whole out of pocket, both parents work to ensure they can protect their careers, rather than one stopping work and then not being able to find another job when the DCs are at school.

In my case, we get a discount on our nursery fees which work out to £680/month for 3 days a week. DH works shifts so is normally able to do one day childcare, my DM&D do another day and if either of those fails, I work from home. But I agree that even on the disocunted rate that we pay, someone on minimum wage wouldn't be able to afford it. We live in London btw.

Perhaps I am unusual! Our finances are all shared, I just think of the childcare costs that way.

I am well educated (Cambridge degree) and head up a legal team at a well known financial institution in the city. I gee up in the home counties.

I don't think men should earn more at all, or be entitled to better jobs than women (unless they are actually better at doing them!). I'm a meritocrat.

My views have changed since hAving dd as I have primary responsibility for her care. Dh helps when he can (and does every weekend) and will do so when I'm abroad for a conference next week- but during the week he has to be in at 7am, and works till 7pm. I can do a 9-5 (but then blackberry etc out of hours) which means the nursery responsibilities fall to me.

Xenia, I dont mean to be rude but i presume you are not married?

For me, marriage is a partnership. When we had our dc's we both wanted for them to be mainly looked after by us and not by nannies all the time. It is quite normal to want this. This means that we could either both work part time which is not very good for the advancement of either career , or one persons career could be scaled back. We decided this should be me as I earn less and did not enjoy my job as much. For some partnerships it is the man doing this instead.

Angel, I often think we're unusual too as all finances are shared as are all costs :)

frankie3 I think that's the point we're arguing over. Why is there the assumption (in the OP and other posts) that it's mother that cuts back / gives up work? I happen to earn a bit more than DH, but in our case we have both cut our hours so we only need a few days of childcare.

Maybe a better way of phrasing the the OP would have been "Childcare costs are incredible, how do so many couples afford to both be in full-time work?". Then we could argue over the cost of childcare, rather than the woman's place!

Over years, we had a range of solutions.

A nanny at 7.50 an hour (cheaper, as three under 6), then an aupair once they were at school. Finally went part time and got a fantastic arrangement with a post grad student via the local uni notice board, who only cost us actual after school hours.

Aslo nanny shared at one point in the early days, when I had only one child left at home, aged 3, but two needing pick ups from school. She (nanny) took on a neighbours baby for a couple of the days, and we paid less per hour on those days.

It was very good for our youngest, too, who got a chance at not being the baby.

For us nursery is affordable because we only have one child, because we have two good incomes and because we live in the north where childcare is cheaper.

We also both get childcare vouchers and, because I only work 3 days, that covers the full cost out of pre-tax income which is nice.

Xenia - it is just common sense to compare the lower income with the childcare costs. In our case that is dh's but I suspect for the majority of families it is the mother's. It is not ridiculous to work when you are making a loss out of it but you need to be clear in your own mind why.

Personally I love my job but the main reason I work is that it means that when we were concerned about dd's large motor skills I could start taking her to soft play every week without having to think about the cost. (Reason no 2 is the sheer joy involved in going to the loo without anyone banging on the door!)

This is one of the reasons I had a larger age gap (4.5 yrs) between DCs - so DD1 started school just as DD2 started childcare!

I guess have a different viewpoint as I do know of a few families where the mother has gone back to work instead of the father. So I agree it should be up to each family to chose what is best for them, not necessarily the mum giving up work.

But there is a choice when a parent goes back to work if child care costs are going to make going back not worthwhile financially. One of the parents will generally be working full time whether or not the other parent does. So the choice is whether the other parent works without there being any financial benefit for the family. Many people will chose to work like this for a few years as they will gain the rewards in the long term. But as the other parent will be working full time whatever happens, then I guess that the child care costs are coming out of both wages, it is common sense to assess the cost against the parent' salary who is making the decision whether or not to work.

I guess your argument is that both parents should be able to go back to work part time, therefore being equal. In an ideal world this would be great, but it is much more difficult to get to a top position in a job when working part time. To run a company or be a managing director you really do need to be there every day.

First of all, must point out I haven't read most of the other posts; am just putting in a response to Zealey's OP.

We're in the Home Counties and not in London but even then our nearest nursery charges £890 a child per month. There is a very small discount for siblings but it's not much. Even so, the waiting list is so full that it's not putting any more families on the waiting list. Admittedly, it's one of the best I've heard of, when it comes to staff ratios, quality of food, quality of activities provided, etc.

Have also noted, like one or two others, that Zealey asks how a mum not earning loads affords it - that it is sad that is down to the mum to fork out childcare costs alone. While some may be mums who are single, I too have noticed that many husbands/partners expect the the mum to pay all the childcare costs, while he pays other bills, and often the surplus goes to him rather than the couple. This isn't true for all dads and partners/husbands, of course, but I am amazed that it even happens. Still it does -that's our society I suppose.

Finally, yes, childcare is expensive. But it is an expensive undertaking if the nursery is well run - good staff, adequate numbers of staff with the right skills, maintaining the equipment and venue, keeping things clean, good nutrition, putting on activities that are beneficial and fun for the children, etc etc. Most mums I know who have 3 kids or more no longer send them to nursery and go out to work (admittedly, the oldest will be in primary school already) because of the costs involved - that's just the ones I know, I'm sure there are many who can continue to do so.

DH and I are lucky enough to have a 6 figure income, but with no family nearby have to fund all childcare. The nursery was £1200 pcm for 1 dc 4days. The local school in london wasnt IMO suitable and we didnt stand a chance of getting into the "good" schools and couldnt afford private school plus a nursery once dc2 came along so like many other families moved out of london (sad). At the time I was earning much more than DH but I choose to work pt for a corporate and have given up all ideas of climbing any higher. you need to commit a min 5 days plus late nights and early starts and travel to a senior job. That mantle is my DH's now. all money is family money and we take on the dd's depending who has spare cash. I work because we need the money and two I dont feel I can give up my pt time job in case dh's goes up the swanny. its not easy for for anyone out there with and money worries and without sounding patronising some out there need a medal for the stress this time of our lives puts us under

I don't think Angel's viewpoint is at all unusual, not even on Mumsnet! But you will find it more on some threads than on others, probably less on a thread like this which is going to attract more wohms.
The reason is obvious to me and it's tied up with the way maternity leave works, as well as birth recovery, breastfeeding, and er...wanting to spend more time with young babies which, call me sexist, seems to be a trait more common amongst women (in my humble experience of 44 years on the planet...)
Therefore most working women in this country take some length of career break having had children then have the decision to make on many levels (financial, logistical, emotional, etc) about when to go back and whether to cut hours or lose some of the higher pressure or travelling aspects of a job, etc. Of course if the woman is a higher earner there is more incentive for her to go back while the man's career goes on hold, but this is less common. We are not all lawyers married to (or divorced from) teachers!
Some posters ( I really want to stop naming names) do find it hard to see others' points of view, even very common, if not majority points of view!

I see Angels point re DH's job being more important in so far as when you are both working someones job has to take second place.

There is little point trying to share responsibility for the sick days, the dental appointments and the school plays unless you both wish to come across as a bit slack which sadly is the reality of trying to deal with these issues whilst working.

Early in we decided that one of us had to be the primary carer. We based it on a mix of 1) who earned more, 2) who could find an alternative job more easily and 3) who wanted to be the primary provider as opposed to carer.

Fortunately in our case the answer to each of these questions was DH so I took on the primary care role (before eventually giving up work all together)