Rishi Sunak said…

I agree in that we need to get Stonewall/Mermaids/inappropriate training materials out of schools fast. Start turning the tanker.

We also need to recognise that there are children, parents and teachers who have heavily bought into the ideology and the solution is not denying them their reality as this would just cause anger, confrontation and polarisation. I am not a teacher, and mercifully my kids got through school before it all really kicked off. But my instinct would be some form of watchful waiting. Cut off the sources of harmful influence and any rewards that come from trans in the form of attention and specialness. Then use diversion, time and anything else that parents use, as well as looking into underlying reasons why trans might appeal to an individual child. (Autism, abuse, homophobia at home etc)

Off topic a bit but DD was convinced she was a boy from age 2 till about age 8. This was before trans was a thing so we were able to treat it as a phase. The reality was that she was a girl but if she wanted to wear boys clothes she could. However if she wanted to progress from nursery to reception she would have to wear girls uniform. She grew out of it, and by 11 had decided that all boys were annoying. It would be awful to be in the same position now.

I went through a phase when I was 8 or 9 of telling people I was a boy and that they should call me a masculine version of my name. My parents just rolled their eyes and said, 'Ok Flo.' It gives me the chills to think what might have happened now.

Disingenuous, Marsha, you were replying to a poster who asked me a question.

You know what you are doing. I know what you are doing and I will happily continue to ignore you if you pack it in.

Nope I really was talking about the poster using those words hence quoting them alone.

Anyway spin out if you want to I really don’t care.

Its a sunny day, all good here don’t need the typical aggro.
If you think continuously posting is some hardship for me then crack on.

Enjoy 👍

I agree in that we need to get Stonewall/Mermaids/inappropriate training materials out of schools fast. Start turning the tanker.

There are so bloody many of them! Allsorts Youth Project, Proud Trust, GIRES, Gendered Intelligence, Butterflies et al.

Floisme · Today 08:35
I went through a phase when I was 8 or 9 of telling people I was a boy and that they should call me a masculine version of my name. My parents just rolled their eyes and said, 'Ok Flo.' It gives me the chills to think what might have happened now.

I was reading about Stephanie Davies -Arai. She and her twin sister, dressed as boys and modelled themselves on the twins in ‘Just William’. This was not on one occasion for dressing up. They preferred to present themselves as boys. She went on to have three or four children I think.
https://lilymaynard.com/stephanie-davies-arai-transgender-trend/

She thinks the same as you, and this is why she started Transgender Trend.
www.transgendertrend.com/

Off topic a bit but DD was convinced she was a boy from age 2 till about age 8. This was before trans was a thing so we were able to treat it as a phase. The reality was that she was a girl but if she wanted to wear boys clothes she could. However if she wanted to progress from nursery to reception she would have to wear girls uniform. She grew out of it, and by 11 had decided that all boys were annoying. It would be awful to be in the same position now

From anecdotal evidence like this it would seem that this may be quite a common phase for many children, so normal that it used to be taken for granted and hardly noticed by parents.

Girls used to be more free to live like boys too, riding bikes, climbing, making camps outdoors.

It is absolutely dreadful that children preferring the pasttimes or appearance associated with the opposite sex are now assumed to be trans, or swayed by society into thinking they are.

Sorry, that was in reply to Needmoresleep · Today 08:31

Yes, it seems normal for kids to consider or challenge gender stereotypes. Three 10 years in DS class spent a term demanding they were called by boys names. They grew up to be interesting and accomplished and very glamorous. Similarly a couple of boys chose female characters for World Book Day. Silly, curious, whatever. They were just being children.

Based on observation I assume it is common to have at least one boy in a primary school class who likes hanging out with the girls, and for a girl who plays football in the playground with the boys. They may turn out to be gay, they may not. They are just being themselves and since people are all different it is important that they are allowed to be who they are.

However kids change over time. The idea that life changing decisions are made on a childhood whim is terrifying. For every middle aged man who says they knew from a early age that they were born in the wrong body, there will be many many children who are exploring who they are, and perhaps challenging teachers or parents at the same time, who will be well adjusted adults without any gender dysphoria.

I do agree that girls used to be able to do "boy" stuff more than lots of them are now, the exception seems to be football which is now more of a thing for girls. I have a GD who is a very bright 5 year old, she is adamant that if you have long hair you are a girl and if you are a girl you must have long hair. Picking her up from school I can see all the girls have long hair. It really didn't used to be like that. As a child in the 60s I had short hair like many of my friends as my mother wasn't prepared to have the hassle of long hair, went to senior school and grew it long but then adopted a crop like Twiggy. Never did I assume my sex was determined by hair length. I've shown GD photos of her dad as a long haired teenager, she will agree it is daddy, she will agree he has long hair, she will agree he isn't a girl but then she will add if you have long hair you are a girl.

I also wanted to be a cowboy, TV seemed to be dominated by cowboy and indian programmes, no way did I want to be a girl in one of those big cotton dresses, I wanted a shirt, a waistcoat and trousers and obviously I needed guns in a holster.

I wonder if someone would decide I had a problem now.

One of my kids decided they were the opposite sex from about 2 to 6. We didn't make a fuss, to be honest it didn't seem that important as we were happy for our kids to do stuff that might be considered appropriate for the opposite sex, so boy in a dress playing with dolls or a girl in football kip pretending they are the England Captain didn't bother us. So I do agree with you

Sorry don't know what happened there. So I do agree with you in this "Cut off the sources of harmful influence and any rewards that come from trans in the form of attention and specialness." I think making a fuss is probably counterproductive, little ones won't understand and bigger ones might want the fuss.

On the other hand if you look at historical trans/third gender stuff it is interesting. In many cultures it was considered a good thing, brought blessings to the community and trans/third gender people often had a particular role e.g. healers, priests, specific skills. Generally it seems like things changed with the arrived of the white Christian missionaries/rulers who changed things. Hijras in India would be a good example although there were similar examples in many parts of the world, apparently they were well regarded, had respected roles and this changed to them being beggars/prostitutes or other poorly regarded groups. Maybe if being different, man wanting to dress like a woman for example, was considered a positive thing as a third gender then there wouldn't be an issue of "TWAW" as those people would embrace the third gender role as a positive.

Not sure if that makes sense, just thinking aloud really.

You are talking about a third gender. Not actually changing sex and automatic access to facilities reserved for females. Not the explosion in gender confusion that has followed some of the Queen theory stuff.

Genuine gender dysphoria seems to exist but has been relatively rare in the west where there may have been better acceptance of homosexuality. I spent time living in an Islamic country and have a reasonable understanding of the language. Somehow "ladyboy" used to be acceptable whereas gay was not. And because ladyboys were somehow a seperate class men were perhaps able to be attracted to them and still go home to their wives secure in the knowledge they were not homosexual. Christian missionaries get blamed for a lot. Creeping Sharia law has probably had more impact in a recent change in societal attitudes.

There is no need to get into any of this in schools, particularly primary school. The Government accurately forecast that 5000 people would seek gender recognition certificates. This is a tiny number. There should be no issue in schools about saying sex is binary. Some people are same sex attracted.

ancientgran · Today 09:41
Maybe if being different, man wanting to dress like a woman for example, was considered a positive thing as a third gender then there wouldn't be an issue of "TWAW" as those people would embrace the third gender role as a positive

Unfortunately, in India where they have traditionally allow for this additional version of being male ( without any claim that they are actually female), the U. S., Australian, Canadian, U.K. model of “TWAW” is now taking hold and pushing the original kind out.

I am sorry, I do not have a link right now, but did read about this somewhere credible which I have forgotten.

Maybe if being different, man wanting to dress like a woman for example, was considered a positive thing as a third gender then there wouldn't be an issue of "TWAW" as those people would embrace the third gender role as a positive.

Even better if a man who wanted to present according to stereotypes was simply accepted as a gender non-conforming man. I understand what you're saying - that if being 'third gender' conferred some kind of social status then there wouldn't be the need for anyone so-identified to claim the spaces, opportunities and language of the opposite sex.

Unfortunately, rather than the tiny minority of genuinely dysphoric people we'd think of as "old school transsexuals", this movement is being driven predominantly by misogynists and fetishists who are force-teaming confused, abused, autistic and/or potentially gay children to be the "acceptable face" of transition. The colonisation of women's spaces and oppression isn't a bug, it's a feature.

The problem is that no-one is thinking about ALL THE OTHER CHILDREN who are being gaslit, lied to, compelled to lie and the impacts of watching and living in an environment of this type of Red Guard insanity day in and day out.

No-one is suggesting we need to be anything but thoughtful in our approach to children who've bought the lie you can change sex and that will solve all their mental health or social problems hook line and sinker but what is happening in schools is suppression of free speech and sometimes even thought of the other children.

They're being told mangling English is acceptable if a certain special group of people say so. So why can't the SEN kids change English rules that they find difficult or make them upset too - because it hurts their feelings? Or the kids with dyscalculia change the rules of maths which can cause them distress? That seems a lot more reasonable to me, honestly, than changing third person pronouns for validation.

I think people who aren't in the system who haven't had their teenage daughter come to them in the middle of the night saying 'I'm scared about all this gender stuff' and having to say - as if the Red Guard had taken over (because they have) - 'yes, you're absolutely right the facts of biology are still real, you're not going mad even if you feel like you are, and you can't identify out of your period but the best thing to do is keep your head down and I'm afraid you're going to have to lie occasionally but just avoid it as best you can - but you're absolutely not wrong'. And know that if your kids speaks up the TEACHERS the ADULTS even the Science teachers (with very few brave notable exceptions) will NOT defend your child's right to speak the facts of science.

It really is as if the entire school system has signed up to the belief (against all evidence) of the earth being flat and children are punished for suggesting there may be scientific data suggesting otherwise and having alternative ideas about the shape of the earth.

More parents who can afford to are homeschooling their students and this pernicious ideology is one of the reasons why. But that leaves the rest being lied to and coercively controlled. It's not ok.

I don’t think there is much of a disagreement that schools need to return to reality based education.

The issue is how do you handle the victims of this ideology. You can’t just say “you’re wrong”. No headteacher is going to go along with something that sparks open warfare within the staff room or with parents, let alone distressed pupils who are even more at sea.

I would be interested in hearing teachers views on the latter, but don’t think it is going to be easy. However stopping the dangerous groups and unscientific teaching will help. And slowly, like a parent with a gender dysphoric child, peers, support, diversion, clarity etc should hopefully but slowly ease us out of the nightmare.

(My mother had dementia for a decade. Her reality was often different and there was no point in trying to argue as this would have just led to a meltdown and a cutting off of communication. However I regularly laid down boundaries. Daily shower, clean clothes etc. I am assuming there is some read across. Ie you believe your gender is male. Fair enough and we are not going to challenge your reality, but at this school we use birth names unless there are clear parental instructions and toilets/games/school trips are by birth sex.)

dimorphism · Today 12:57
So why can't the SEN kids change English rules that they find difficult or make them upset too - because it hurts their feelings? Or the kids with dyscalculia change the rules of maths which can cause them distress? That seems a lot more reasonable to me, honestly, than changing third person pronouns for validation.

All too true.

I agree it isn't relevant for schools.

I'm not sure about absolving the Christian missionaries/rulers of responsibility. I think it is pretty clear that the change in status of Hijra people coincided with The Raj, the change for two spirit people in North America also coincided with the arrival of white Christians and I don't think there was a big Islamic influence there. I think the sort of groups I am talking about were distinct from "ladyboys" as they often had religious or spiritual significance. Historically homosexuality hasn't been very acceptable in the west, I think in the UK quite severe prison sentences weren't uncommon. I'm not sure where homosexuality was accepted historically in the west but it isn't something I've looked into so maybe there were places.

It is probably hard to be sure about the third gender v trans position, some of the third gender societies would practice castration for example and in some they would take female roles e.g. caring roles for the elderly or relatives children but in others it would be different.

The big difference was it being not only accepted but often seen as a positive either because of the spiritual connection or because they were considered good workers e.g. in a society where men would hunt and women would be cultivators a strong male was probably a useful addition. I wonder how many trans people would welcome a third gender if it was a positive option?

"the change for two spirit people in North America also coincided with the arrival of white Christians"

Did "Two spirit" even exist as a concept in any North American indigenous culture before it was named in 1990 by two new-age hippy guys?

Since then, it has been commodified as yet another conveyor belt to "trans medicalisation".

Toward an End to Appropriation of Indigenous “Two Spirit” People in Trans Politics: the Relationship Between Third Gender Roles and Patriarchy
https://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/toward-an-end-to-appropriation-of-indigenous-two-spirit-people-in-trans-politics-the-relationship-between-third-gender-roles-and-patriarchy/

Unpacking Common Myths & Misconceptions About Indigenous Two-Spirit & Third Genders

I was a girl who thought for years I was "really" a boy. It wasn't that I thought I'd have more freedom or anything like that either, I was allowed to do anything I wanted that a boy would have been allowed to do, I didn't think I'd be better off at school, or anything like that.

It was more that I was utterly convinced that the way I was, was a boy way to be. I suspect in hindsight this was largely because I had a deep hero worship of Han Solo, so I saw myself as being like him.

What always made me think that puberty blockers were a crazy idea was that what made me snap out of this phase, even before I was really able to think it through logically, was I became interested in boys. And it became clear to me that a large part of being attractive to boys was tied up with being a girl. So giving puberty blockers so that a child doesn't develop that kind of sexual interest is going to block a potential avenue to becoming happy with their sexed body. (I also think there could very probably be an element of why gender ideology could continue to be compelling to gay and lesbian kids who have already started to have sexual attraction.)

Thank you Bosky Yesterday 22:31 for this fascinating article.

Toward an End to Appropriation of Indigenous “Two Spirit” People in Trans Politics: the Relationship Between Third Gender Roles and Patriarchy
https://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/toward-an-end-to-appropriation-of-indigenous-two-spirit-people-in-trans-politics-the-relationship-between-third-gender-roles-and-patriarchy

Everything you said @DemiColon makes a lot of sense!

I have never and will never vote Tory.
They are crippling this country.
Cunts.