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Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #67

1000 replies

nauticant · 01/10/2026 18:23

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims were of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claimed to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and after a prolonged process judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025. That judgment is being appealed and an appeal hearing is expected to take place in 2027.

A second Employment Tribunal, Sandie Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing, has just been heard. The hearing started on Wednesday 23 September 2026 and ended on Thursday 1 October 2026. It is possible that a decision will be handed down before Christmas of this year.

Additional legal claims have been raised. Sandie Peggie is taking action against three senior managers who were witnesses in the first Employment Tribunal - Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson, against Carol Potter, the chief executive of NHS Fife, for victimisation, against NHS Fife for discrimination, and against its director of people and culture David Miller for harassment. In addition, Sandie Peggie is being investigated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council over fitness to practice.

The past proceedings were live tweeted by www.x.com/tribunaltweets. Tribunal Tweets are likely to be providing coverage in future proceedings. There's additional information on Tribunal Tweets' substack: www.tribunaltweets.substack.com/.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 61: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

Thread 62: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5562302-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-62 3 August 2026 to 24 September 2026

Thread 63: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5581909-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-63 24 September 2026 to 27 September 2026

Thread 64: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583133-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-64 27 September 2026 to 29 September 2026

Thread 65: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583663-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-65 29 September 2026 to 30 September 2026

Thread 66: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584074-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-66 30 September 2026 to 1 October 2026

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19
GriseldaandMike · 05/10/2026 23:31

A Few Good Men is one of my favourite films

This am drama production has all the same lines

"turn to the page in this book that tells me how to get to the mess hall."

"You can't handle the truth"

"I forgot you were off sick the day they taught law in law school"

"I still think we can win"

"Why do you hate them so much?"

"I strenuously object"

But it doesn't quite up to the quality of the original.

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 23:33

prh47bridge · 05/10/2026 23:15

I did not say Swift was required to decide a separate signage issue. I said that if the very arrangement he was analysing were obviously unlawful in itself, it would be very odd for him to construct that exact scenario, expressly note that the lavatory would still be labelled “women”, and then analyse the discrimination consequences of the arrangement without saying a word about the supposedly more basic illegality.

And that is exactly the point I've answered. EHRC were saying that it would be unlawful discrimination if a biological man was refused entry to such a facility, GLP were saying it would not. That, therefore, is the point Swift answered. He did not talk about whether such an arrangement was inherently unlawful as that was not argued.

Your answer amounts to saying that a judge can expressly analyse the legal consequences of a factual arrangement while completely ignoring an obvious legal defect inherent in that same arrangement simply because nobody pleaded it. That may explain why he would not rule on the separate point, but it does not make his total silence about it meaningless.

No, that is a full explanation. If a judge wants to raise an argument or legal angle that was not made by either side in court, they must first give both parties a chance to argue the point. His total silence is because it was not argued, not for any other reason.

And in this case the supposed problem is not some remote copyright issue sitting in the background. It concerns the very thing he expressly identifies: a lavatory that is mixed-sex for Equality Act purposes but still labelled “women”.

Actually, in the case I mentioned, copyright was not some remote issue sitting in the background. It should have been central but both parties missed it. The judge didn't, but he couldn't mention it in his judgment because it hadn't been argued.

You need to show the legal route from “this toilet is mixed-sex for Equality Act purposes” to “it is therefore legally mislabelled if the door says ‘women’”.

The problem is not that I have not done so. I have. You don't want to accept that the law is what it clearly is. If you want to argue further, try arguing it before a judge. You would lose.

You keep saying the same thing over and over again. The point wasn’t argued, so Swift didn’t have to decide it. Fine. But if the arrangement were evidently and automatically unlawful, it would still be striking for him not to mention that while hypothesising this exact scenario.

If Swift had wanted to decide that the arrangement was unlawful because of the signage, he would have needed to give the parties a fair opportunity to address it. But there was no rule requiring him to ignore or remain silent about an obvious legal defect unless and until somebody pleaded it.

And if the supposed illegality were really as obvious and automatic as you say it is, then yes, it is odd that Swift did not even acknowledge it while expressly hypothesising that exact arrangement, even though it was not an issue he was deciding.

It’s also disingenuous to claim that you have demonstrated the legal route from “mixed-sex for Equality Act purposes” to “therefore legally mislabelled as women”. The building regulations you cited do not establish that proposition.

Saying “I’ve already proved it” and “you’d lose before a judge” is not a substitute for identifying the law that actually says what you claim it says.

Anyway we're just going round in circles here so will leave it there.

TheBazaarAtDeva · 05/10/2026 23:36

This is never going to stop because paragraph 61 is being brought up all the time as a rebuttal to anything and it's not even from the FWS case.

It's painfully obvious this poster is just going to repeat themselves and wilfully misunderstand UK law and regulations so can we please just let this thread fill up and not carry it on to the new one?

If they are determined to carry on about paragraph 61 then let them start a thread but there's no point replying as they aren't here to debate, just tell women who want sss why we're wrong.

NoWordForFluffy · 05/10/2026 23:37

You keep saying the same thing over and over again.

Bit fucking ironic...

WFTCHTJ · 05/10/2026 23:42

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 19:05

Any person, male or female, is entitled to set a boundary around which questions they choose to answer. That’s a right afforded in law even to people accused of the most serious crimes. 🙂

But the court is entitled to draw certain inferences from the accused's failure to answer questions put to them. I'm pretty sure most of us are also drawing certain inferences from your being more concerned about your conversational boundaries than women's boundaries regarding who they are willing to undress in front of.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 06/10/2026 00:08

I used to frequent a forum that had a specific offence of 'shitting up a thread', which could earn a ban from the thread - or a full ban for repeated offences. And you could hide all posts from specific posters.

An arrangement that should be more widely adopted

solerolover · 06/10/2026 00:13

You keep saying the same thing over and over again.

irony GIF
Keeptoiletssafe · 06/10/2026 00:19

Just going to bed, but wondered if anyone has mentioned a paragraph 61 yet?

prh47bridge · 06/10/2026 00:24

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 23:33

You keep saying the same thing over and over again. The point wasn’t argued, so Swift didn’t have to decide it. Fine. But if the arrangement were evidently and automatically unlawful, it would still be striking for him not to mention that while hypothesising this exact scenario.

If Swift had wanted to decide that the arrangement was unlawful because of the signage, he would have needed to give the parties a fair opportunity to address it. But there was no rule requiring him to ignore or remain silent about an obvious legal defect unless and until somebody pleaded it.

And if the supposed illegality were really as obvious and automatic as you say it is, then yes, it is odd that Swift did not even acknowledge it while expressly hypothesising that exact arrangement, even though it was not an issue he was deciding.

It’s also disingenuous to claim that you have demonstrated the legal route from “mixed-sex for Equality Act purposes” to “therefore legally mislabelled as women”. The building regulations you cited do not establish that proposition.

Saying “I’ve already proved it” and “you’d lose before a judge” is not a substitute for identifying the law that actually says what you claim it says.

Anyway we're just going round in circles here so will leave it there.

You keep saying the same thing over and over again. The point wasn’t argued, so Swift didn’t have to decide it. Fine. But if the arrangement were evidently and automatically unlawful, it would still be striking for him not to mention that while hypothesising this exact scenario.

And you keep on ignoring the point that it would not be even vaguely striking for him not to mention it because it was not argued. It would have been striking if he had mentioned it and would have given GLP an easy route to getting an appeal.

If Swift had wanted to decide that the arrangement was unlawful because of the signage, he would have needed to give the parties a fair opportunity to address it. But there was no rule requiring him to ignore or remain silent about an obvious legal defect unless and until somebody pleaded it.

Yes, there absolutely is a rule requiring a judge to ignore a legal defect that has not been pleaded. Judges are strictly bound by the boundaries of formal pleadings. However, it is not an absolute rule. Yes, he could have decided to delay the judgment to give the parties an opportunity to address it, but why would he do that? He did not need to address the legal defect to answer the question being asked.

And if the supposed illegality were really as obvious and automatic as you say it is, then yes, it is odd that Swift did not even acknowledge it while expressly hypothesising that exact arrangement, even though it was not an issue he was deciding.

He did not hypothesise the arrangement. This is exactly the point that was being put to him. EHRC's guidance states that allowing trans identifying males into the female toilets meant that any man had to be admitted or they would have a claim for discrimination. GLP said this was wrong. So the parties came up with the scenario, not Swift.

Saying “I’ve already proved it” and “you’d lose before a judge” is not a substitute for identifying the law that actually says what you claim it says.

A lot of UK law is not written down as legislation. It is trite law that any single sex facility must be appropriately labelled. The Building Regulations (which I did identify) set that out for new builds and alterations to existing properties, but it would be true even if they were silent on the matter. Following FWS, a label that says a single sex facility is for women is clearly referring to biological women. That is also implicit in EHRC's guidance which, whilst not law itself, is something courts and tribunals are required to take into account and will generally treat as authoritative.

oviraptor21 · 06/10/2026 00:29

Please can this debate be put to rest by the end of this thread? And maybe the entire thread can be binned as there's so little that actually discusses Sandie's case - though would be a shame to lose the rat recipe.

Tears0fTheMushroom · 06/10/2026 00:55

WaterThyme · 05/10/2026 22:40

I’m struggling to catch up while quietly boggling at what the labels on the doors for all these categories might be. They’re confusing enough in words, how would they look in pictograms? You know, we currently have the stick man, the stick woman with skirt, and the stick person with half a skirt and one trouser leg. What would represent Women (including the men who would like to be treated as women)? An aubergine with a skirt on?

This one would work

Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #67
BunfightBetty · 06/10/2026 01:22

DustyWindowsills · 05/10/2026 23:30

our friend from down under is clearly a man who thinks they are a woman

I'm not even sure it's a human. It reads like AI slop.

I think the game is to clog up the threads, waste our time, and divert us from any more meaningful conversation, while spending relatively little of their own.

It can’t take all that long to feed posts you’re responding to into AI, and then paste in its responses over and over. If you don’t care about the quality of your supposed posts you can keep doing that ad infinitum, I guess.

Veilsofmorning · 06/10/2026 01:32

As a PP said - Groundhog Day
came across a couple of quotes that might be appropriate here:

Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain -Friedrich Schiller

You can’t argue with someone who believes their own lies

  • to which we might add- Or AI😐
borntobequiet · 06/10/2026 05:41

A very long time ago, I encountered a child who, in trouble for bringing a can of beer into school to have with his (packed) lunch, argued that it was OK for him to do so because nowhere in the school rules did it explicitly say “you cannot bring in beer to have with your lunch”. Astonishingly, he was backed up by his mum. I’m vaguely reminded of this every time it’s argued on here that it’s not illegal to have a sign saying women on a toilet door, which is both silly and beside the point (IANAL, obviously).
He was excluded for a day anyway, of course. And generally laughed at by his friends.

BlueLegume · 06/10/2026 06:25

@lacksie legal arguments aside what is your stance on teaching your children about staying safe around strangers?

What is your stance on boys presenting as girls being allowed to potentially take a place on a sports team meaning that a girl misses out on a chance in that team?

No toilets mentioned.

JamesKirkupReviewWritersFund · 06/10/2026 06:45

Paragraph 61 has been quoted so often, am now pretty confident it would be my specialist topic on Mastermind

nicepotoftea · 06/10/2026 07:01

So much energy spent arguing for a service to be segregated by sex for reasons outside section 3.

I can’t understand this as anything other than regressive.

Mountainlarch · 06/10/2026 07:02

I would like to thank @prh47bridge for the persistence and patience in explaining some points of the law so thoroughly. In my opinion, all was clear from who won and lost this case, but I'm glad that also this point is put to rest.

Needapadlockonmyfridge · 06/10/2026 07:07

Mountainlarch · 06/10/2026 07:02

I would like to thank @prh47bridge for the persistence and patience in explaining some points of the law so thoroughly. In my opinion, all was clear from who won and lost this case, but I'm glad that also this point is put to rest.

This. Thank you @prh47bridge .

WhichDoorIsOut · 06/10/2026 07:09

There’s no show without Punch

Justabaker · 06/10/2026 07:28

MoistVonL · 05/10/2026 16:58

The WI leadership were absolutely desperate to continue to accept trans identifying men as members. They had legal advice that they just couldn't.

If it was the slam dunk Lacksie seems to think, marketing things as for women but including trans identifying men, the WI would still accept transwomen as members.

I suspect the legal advice said that they would be required to change their charitable objects; in the case of the WI, Articles of Association. And possibly their name.

The WI has a complex structure because it is a federated charity, not a single legal entity. So just in England there is the NFWI, then the county and island level WI (the federations), then the local WIs.

Amending the Articles would require first a special resolution of those entitled to vote at the NFWI, that being:

  • WI link delegates, appointed under the Articles to represent Women’s Institutes at national meetings. In recent practice one link delegate has represented a group of WIs (often eight).
  • Federation representatives, who sit on National Council. Each federation has two: normally the federation chair and treasurer, or an appointed deputy. A non-member co-opted trustee cannot act as a federation representative.

A special resolution would require a vote of 75% in favour. And I would guess that group voting (called members but not the individual members) might 100 people or more. And I can't imagine that 'leadership' of the WI could win that vote.

If they did manage that, it would probably destroy the WI, maybe not immediately but it would crumble and fail in 5 years because the eyes of all the WI members (meaning the individuals) would be well and truly opened.

MyThreeWords · 06/10/2026 07:45

Oh, Jeeezoh, I actually hid this thread last night and there have been over 100 posts since I hid it, all trudging round the same small circle like an exhausted hamster.

But I vow not to respond again to posters who are clearly too stressed and overwhelmed to actually read replies to them, rather than just scanning them for ways to dismiss them.

Tunnocks, leeches, even horrible little gerbils I am here for you.

Justabaker · 06/10/2026 08:05

Girl Guides would be probably a higher level of pain to change the rules and become, effectively, a mixed sex organisation. It has a Royal Charter so it would involve the Privy Council, the Charity Commission, resolutions etc.

It also has a federated structure.

The SC decision in FWS has made them stop pretending that some boys are girls. Finally.

Hedgehogforshort · 06/10/2026 08:10

@Justabaker good points.

Lacksie · 06/10/2026 08:10

Following FWS, a label that says a single sex facility is for women is clearly referring to biological women

this is factually not what FWS says.

FWS says that, for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010, references to “woman”, “man” and “sex” for the purposes of interpreting that piece of legislation are to biological sex.

It does not establish a general rule that every sign saying “women” is, as a matter of law, a declaration that the facility is exclusively for biological women.

Also it is misleadingly broad to say that judges must ignore/ be silent on a legal deficit that is not pleaded. courts can notice and raise an unargued point; what they ordinarily cannot do is decide the case against a party on that point without hearing them. Sometimes they invite further submissions; sometimes they mention the point but decline to decide it; sometimes they simply decide that it is unnecessary to resolve

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