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Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #67

1000 replies

nauticant · 01/10/2026 18:23

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims were of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claimed to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and after a prolonged process judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025. That judgment is being appealed and an appeal hearing is expected to take place in 2027.

A second Employment Tribunal, Sandie Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing, has just been heard. The hearing started on Wednesday 23 September 2026 and ended on Thursday 1 October 2026. It is possible that a decision will be handed down before Christmas of this year.

Additional legal claims have been raised. Sandie Peggie is taking action against three senior managers who were witnesses in the first Employment Tribunal - Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson, against Carol Potter, the chief executive of NHS Fife, for victimisation, against NHS Fife for discrimination, and against its director of people and culture David Miller for harassment. In addition, Sandie Peggie is being investigated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council over fitness to practice.

The past proceedings were live tweeted by www.x.com/tribunaltweets. Tribunal Tweets are likely to be providing coverage in future proceedings. There's additional information on Tribunal Tweets' substack: www.tribunaltweets.substack.com/.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 61: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

Thread 62: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5562302-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-62 3 August 2026 to 24 September 2026

Thread 63: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5581909-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-63 24 September 2026 to 27 September 2026

Thread 64: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583133-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-64 27 September 2026 to 29 September 2026

Thread 65: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583663-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-65 29 September 2026 to 30 September 2026

Thread 66: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584074-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-66 30 September 2026 to 1 October 2026

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prh47bridge · 05/10/2026 18:47

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 17:42

If you stick a label on that facility saying "women", you are in breach of the regulations regarding signage for such facilities

Which regulation, specifically, makes that label unlawful? Please identify the provision rather than simply assert that one exists.

You are treating the Equality Act’s classification of a facility as though it automatically dictates the wording on its door. That does not follow. Swift expressly considered a trans-inclusive facility labelled “women” in paragraph 61 and contemplated it could be lawful depending on the circumstances.

If you claim that the label itself breaches a separate signage regulation, identify that regulation and explain how it applies.

Edited

No, Swift only considered whether a man excluded from that facility would have a claim for unlawful discrimination. He did not consider whether the facility would itself be lawful.

I am not going to waste my time explaining regulations that require clear and appropriate signage and how the courts interpret that to you. It will only lead to you making even more posts displaying your complete lack of understanding of the relevant law.

prh47bridge · 05/10/2026 18:48

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 17:05

Yes, I think so. On the same basis as al-Hijrah.

There are two precedents that come to mind. Al-Hijrah where equal-and-opposite treatment was found to be unlawfully detrimental (to both boys and girls) and Smith vs Safeway, where equal treatment (requiring 'conventional' dress codes of both men and women, different in each case but in each case conventional for that sex) was lawful.

@prh47bridge may want to comment and tell me I've got my law wrong, but that's my understanding.

No comment needed!

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 05/10/2026 18:48

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 18:29

This kind of response is exactly why I’m going to respectfully decline to answer your hypothetical questions.

I provide a response, and you immediately escalate it into “so you’re OK with assault and incredible damage to my mental health”.

That isn’t a fair representation of anything I’ve said, and it makes genuine discussion almost impossible. This is a recurring pattern whenever we interact.

You would have no problem with the question if you were to give a reasonable answer. It seems obvious that your honest answer is horribly misogynistic and unethical. If that's not the case, you will have no difficulty in refuting what I have just said by supplying your honest answer, with an explanation of how it is not misogynistic and is ethical. We are talking about medical ethics here, in case you had not realised.

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 18:48

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2026 18:38

As Taztoy said, you do realise your esteemed Dr Upton said he was entitled to treat a woman who specifically asked for a female HCP, don’t you? Do you think he was wrong in that?

As I’ve said, I’m setting a boundary around which of my personal views I choose to share. That isn’t because I’m unable or unwilling to discuss the broader issues in general, but because my answers to questions about my personal views in this space are repeatedly taken by certain posters, distorted beyond what I’ve actually said, and then used as a basis for personal attacks without restraint. I don’t think that contributes anything useful to the discussion.

Wishesandhorses · 05/10/2026 18:49

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 17:42

If you stick a label on that facility saying "women", you are in breach of the regulations regarding signage for such facilities

Which regulation, specifically, makes that label unlawful? Please identify the provision rather than simply assert that one exists.

You are treating the Equality Act’s classification of a facility as though it automatically dictates the wording on its door. That does not follow. Swift expressly considered a trans-inclusive facility labelled “women” in paragraph 61 and contemplated it could be lawful depending on the circumstances.

If you claim that the label itself breaches a separate signage regulation, identify that regulation and explain how it applies.

Edited

oh for goodness sake.

Look. What do you think the SCJ actually was FOR and SAID?

If the guidance from the EHRC (legally checked), and the legal guidance received clearly saying that men can't be in the WI however they identify, boys can't be in the Girl Guides, however they are identifying, and that the government says women get single sex spaces because of the confirmation of the law - how is that they're all wrong, and you're right on this?

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 18:49

prh47bridge · 05/10/2026 18:47

No, Swift only considered whether a man excluded from that facility would have a claim for unlawful discrimination. He did not consider whether the facility would itself be lawful.

I am not going to waste my time explaining regulations that require clear and appropriate signage and how the courts interpret that to you. It will only lead to you making even more posts displaying your complete lack of understanding of the relevant law.

Uh huh. Convenient. I’ll take that as meaning you’re unable to provide the authority for the broad proposition you made about facilities being legally “mislabelled”.

spannasaurus · 05/10/2026 18:52

@Lacksie do you have any legal qualifications or experience, have you received any training in the interpretation and application of legislation and case law?

GriseldaandMike · 05/10/2026 18:53

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 18:48

As I’ve said, I’m setting a boundary around which of my personal views I choose to share. That isn’t because I’m unable or unwilling to discuss the broader issues in general, but because my answers to questions about my personal views in this space are repeatedly taken by certain posters, distorted beyond what I’ve actually said, and then used as a basis for personal attacks without restraint. I don’t think that contributes anything useful to the discussion.

The thing is if you didn't think Dr U should be able to treat a woman who asked for a woman you would say, so your lack of answer allows us to infer that you think it's OK.

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 18:55

GriseldaandMike · 05/10/2026 18:53

The thing is if you didn't think Dr U should be able to treat a woman who asked for a woman you would say, so your lack of answer allows us to infer that you think it's OK.

You are, of course, welcome to infer whatever you wish. That isn’t something I can control.

Taztoy · 05/10/2026 18:56

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 18:48

As I’ve said, I’m setting a boundary around which of my personal views I choose to share. That isn’t because I’m unable or unwilling to discuss the broader issues in general, but because my answers to questions about my personal views in this space are repeatedly taken by certain posters, distorted beyond what I’ve actually said, and then used as a basis for personal attacks without restraint. I don’t think that contributes anything useful to the discussion.

Can you please show where I have personally attacked you.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 05/10/2026 18:58

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 18:48

As I’ve said, I’m setting a boundary around which of my personal views I choose to share. That isn’t because I’m unable or unwilling to discuss the broader issues in general, but because my answers to questions about my personal views in this space are repeatedly taken by certain posters, distorted beyond what I’ve actually said, and then used as a basis for personal attacks without restraint. I don’t think that contributes anything useful to the discussion.

Are women allowed to set boundaries? Was Sandie Peggie right or wrong to set a boundary over a man in the changing room that women like her used? Was NHS Fife right or wrong to tell Dr Upton that he could use that changing room? And was Dr Upton right or wrong to say that he would treat a woman who had requested a female doctor in a non-emergency scenario?

DrBlackbird · 05/10/2026 18:59

spannasaurus · 05/10/2026 18:52

@Lacksie do you have any legal qualifications or experience, have you received any training in the interpretation and application of legislation and case law?

I think we all know the answer to that one. I skip over those posts and just read the rebuttals for an accurate summary.

Wishesandhorses · 05/10/2026 19:01

Mate, you've intentionally come to a women's rights space that championed the right of women's single sex spaces, and have gone on and on about your personal belief that women are not in fact entitled in law to a single sex space where men with gender identities can force themself and their needs upon them.

At this point, there really isn't much left for you to set a boundary around.

I'm still agog to know how the guidance passed through the HoC and the GLP failed in their case, and the govt are progressing based on an understanding of the law that apparently you personally have an insight into that everyone else lacks, but you're right and they're wrong. Have you thought of telling Jolyon?

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 19:02

Wishesandhorses · 05/10/2026 18:49

oh for goodness sake.

Look. What do you think the SCJ actually was FOR and SAID?

If the guidance from the EHRC (legally checked), and the legal guidance received clearly saying that men can't be in the WI however they identify, boys can't be in the Girl Guides, however they are identifying, and that the government says women get single sex spaces because of the confirmation of the law - how is that they're all wrong, and you're right on this?

I think the argument goes along the lines of "unless there's enforcement, laws are merely words, meanwhile every extra day or week of an organization refusing to follow the law is an extra day or week where the law has no effect, and because I think the law is a bad one that outcome is a good thing."

Sort of a rear-guard delaying action.

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 19:03

Taztoy · 05/10/2026 18:56

Can you please show where I have personally attacked you.

If you don’t feel that you have, that’s absolutely fine. I’m not asking you to agree with my perspective.

I’m simply explaining the boundary I’m choosing to set for myself around what I engage with, and why I feel the need to set it. From my perspective, things I say are repeatedly twisted well beyond what I’ve actually said and then used as a basis for name-calling, personal attacks and dehumanising characterisations. I don’t want to keep putting myself in that position. I don't think it contributes to the discussion and I'm sure it's not good for anyone.

Wishesandhorses · 05/10/2026 19:04

You can also stop with the performative, 'I only came here to explain that I and men like me can deprive you of being able to undress without us eleventy billion times and you got cross with me and are being rude' bit.

I can't imagine any reason for all this unless that's exactly what you were setting out to get in the first place. Normally at this point there's a Reddit group somewhere sniggering into their redbull while mum heats up the pizza, and the kleenex is well stocked. Women here have been around the block on all this for bloody years.

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 19:05

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 05/10/2026 18:58

Are women allowed to set boundaries? Was Sandie Peggie right or wrong to set a boundary over a man in the changing room that women like her used? Was NHS Fife right or wrong to tell Dr Upton that he could use that changing room? And was Dr Upton right or wrong to say that he would treat a woman who had requested a female doctor in a non-emergency scenario?

Any person, male or female, is entitled to set a boundary around which questions they choose to answer. That’s a right afforded in law even to people accused of the most serious crimes. 🙂

Taztoy · 05/10/2026 19:06

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 19:03

If you don’t feel that you have, that’s absolutely fine. I’m not asking you to agree with my perspective.

I’m simply explaining the boundary I’m choosing to set for myself around what I engage with, and why I feel the need to set it. From my perspective, things I say are repeatedly twisted well beyond what I’ve actually said and then used as a basis for name-calling, personal attacks and dehumanising characterisations. I don’t want to keep putting myself in that position. I don't think it contributes to the discussion and I'm sure it's not good for anyone.

I firmly believe I haven’t personally attacked you.

BunfightBetty · 05/10/2026 19:06

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 18:48

As I’ve said, I’m setting a boundary around which of my personal views I choose to share. That isn’t because I’m unable or unwilling to discuss the broader issues in general, but because my answers to questions about my personal views in this space are repeatedly taken by certain posters, distorted beyond what I’ve actually said, and then used as a basis for personal attacks without restraint. I don’t think that contributes anything useful to the discussion.

As I’ve said, I’m setting a boundary around which of my personal views I choose to share.

😂 Of course you are!

How very jolly convenient.

Brilliant sunlight this, Lacksie. Pure comedy gold. Cheers! 🍻

Taztoy · 05/10/2026 19:07

I haven’t done any name calling. I haven’t distorted anything. And I most certainly have not attacked you and your inference that I have is baseless

Wishesandhorses · 05/10/2026 19:07

MyAmpleSheep · 05/10/2026 19:02

I think the argument goes along the lines of "unless there's enforcement, laws are merely words, meanwhile every extra day or week of an organization refusing to follow the law is an extra day or week where the law has no effect, and because I think the law is a bad one that outcome is a good thing."

Sort of a rear-guard delaying action.

Could be. And yet organisations are. The govt have no plans to do anything different. The cases from women who have been harmed keep on rolling in. And will keep on rolling in, because men using these spaces infallibly behave badly because as very evident: they have zero respect for women as humans or equals. And of course the next Isla Bryson will pop along shortly in the national press; that's always only ever a matter of time too.

BunfightBetty · 05/10/2026 19:07

I think it was very obvious to any FWR regulars that Lacksie was going to swerve condemning Upton for stating - on oath, no less - that he would deliberately ignore lack of consent for him to perform an intimate examination on a woman.

A potential/mooted sexual assault. Which Lacksie won't condemn.

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 19:08

Taztoy · 05/10/2026 19:06

I firmly believe I haven’t personally attacked you.

Okay.

Wishesandhorses · 05/10/2026 19:09

Oh lord, we're onto the psychotic smilies now.

Lacksie · 05/10/2026 19:10

Wishesandhorses · 05/10/2026 19:09

Oh lord, we're onto the psychotic smilies now.

psychotic

...used as a basis for name-calling, personal attacks and dehumanising characterisations.

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