Wanting to discuss trans people with non gender critical folks

[Taztoy]

I’ve been on another thread - and other threads - and I’d like to talk to anyone who believes that trans women are women and trans men are men.

I don’t understand how that works and I’ve tried on other threads to get engagement , and it hasn’t worked.

so. I’m starting a thread.

I promise I am asking genuinely and I really do want to debate.

I don’t understand how I can tell if a trans woman is genuine.

I don’t understand how the laws could be written to make it work.

I don’t understand how it works as it competes with sex based rights.

I will probably regret starting this but I’d really like to understand

It’s not about safety as in whether or not the trans individual is any more risk than any other man. Not for me. It’s about having a man in a female single sex space.

im not saying anything other than I’m entitled to a single sex space. In law. I want and need that.

trans individuals believe different.

I don’t understand. And the other thread / not that this is a TAAT - had people saying we don’t post on FWR because the folk there don’t want to listen.

j do. And j want to understand. And I don’t. And I thought this might be an opportunity to discuss. But as I have said so so many times now it was a bad idea

I'd love to speak to intelligent people who have that opinion too.

The closest I have come is a tw (almost certainly autistic) who understand that GI is not the same as sex, he wants to be a woman and for people to treat him as they would a woman but he uses gender neutral facilities or goes home.

My colleague who's into all things equality, he believes in true trans, like woman's brain in man's body. But has no answer for how to choose which tw can access women's spaces. He thinks we should let them all in otherwise the true tw is being punished, so 'women be damned'.

The rest are unfortunately not intelligent and just repeat slogans and call you transphobic.

I get your cognitive dissonance. But the reality is we can accommodate trans identifying people without having to believe black is white and maintaining sex based rights. It is a valid option and the only one in line with the law.

You aren't mad, the activists are, and they have done a total number by telling trans people that they are what they say they are and the rest of the world will just go along with that.

Men can't be women. Women have a right to single sex spaces. Trans people should have the same rights and should have the same respect as everyone else. This is a totally consistent world view rooted in human rights.

I don't think it's a bad idea to ask 'is there something out there that could truly convince us that a transgender woman is a woman (or at least, not a man)?

But even if we find that elusive something, your history will make it hard to see TW as anything other than men: and your perspective is at least as valid as anyone else's. It doesn't need justifying.

It’s about definition - some people who believe in trans think that we should define woman to mean someone who wants to be a woman so a transwoman can opt in because they feel they’ve been given the wrong body. Etc.

they feel some people really suffer as they don’t feel they fit who they are and that in the modern age we should prioritise their need to join the opposite sex. that it harms nobody.

This reminds me of street epistemology. Take 2 people with opposing views and ask them what single piece of evidence would move them just 1 step closer to their counterpart eg a brain scan that showed all women were identical and 'real' tw had brains the same as us.

There are videos on YouTube on various controversial subjects.

I’m firmly gender critical too. People are born male or female and that is fixed.

I think you are asking about people who genuinely feel ‘wrong’ vs men who claim to be women for more nepharious reasons.

I know of two boys, a cousin and a friend’s son, who insisted that they were girls from a very young age. Both have parents who are gender critical, who sought help from mental health specialists but in the end both went along with their child changing their name, dressing as the opposite sex etc. Both will be in their mid-late 20s now, and as far as I am aware, still living as if they were female.

I think it’s very sad to feel that unhappy about yourself, and I don’t know how I’d have handled it myself.

@Taztoy I think I understand where you're coming from. I used to think TWAW and didn't see the issue with them using women's toilets etc because I felt bad that they must be so desperately unhappy in their body that they'd put themselves through horrific surgery. This was because the only trans people I had met (and it was only TW with the exception of one TM) had all undergone surgery and had it planned. None of them were the very vocal type that seems to be so prevalent now. They were quiet, unassuming people who just went about their lives without the whole "Look at me" type drama. I don't know if it's because they were much older and had been living that way for many years, or just the type of people that they were.

The three who spring to mind were a customer (so obviously I wasn't able to ask questions), a co-worker who I wasn't particularly close to, and a (his words) transvestite. The transvestite and I met at a fetish night and had a really good chat. I asked him why he dressed as a woman and he said he feels softer and nicer when he's "being a woman" (again, his words). He said he hates how masculine and aggressive he is as a man and much prefers being a more gentle kind of person. Again, he was a lot older than me at the time, this was about 30 yrs ago and he was probably in his 40s. I wonder whether he was unable to express that part of him due to upbringing or societal expectations as he was growing up.

I do think that the whole boys will be boys, boys don't cry, etc type attitudes may have influenced some of the TW I have met. Maybe like the TV, they felt the only way they could be less macho would be to become a woman.

I don't know if this helps at all. I would like to speak to some more moderate trans people to understand it all a bit more, but I think the TRAs are so vocal that the more moderate perhaps are scared to make themselves known? I know on Reddit some trans people have been hounded off the boards for being "transphobic".

Please don't feel you have to name change and go away. You asked a perfectly understandable question IMHO. I think the psychology behind all this is fascinating, even though I am 100% GC and support single sex spaces. Look after yourself and feel free to PM me if you like.

OP, I don't think it is possible for anyone to explain why they believe that people have a gender independent of their sex, because it's purely a belief.

Beliefs don't need to stem from logic or evidence.
Most religious beliefs would fail on those criteria, but we accept that they are genuinely held beliefs.

To continue the analogy, while there are plenty of people who genuinely hold religious beliefs, there are also bad players who will manipulate others through their beliefs.

When you talk about squaring the circle, I think that you are trying to do something impossible. Even if you believe that transwomen are women, there is no way of differentiating them from predatory men who claim to be transwomen. (Even after someone committed a crime, no one could say if they were a predatory transwoman or a lying man).

So, with regards to single sex /gender spaces, either transwomen are excluded, which goes against their beliefs and arguably expose them to risk in men's spaces, OR transwomen are allowed in, but so are lying men and all the risks they bring. There is no way to facilitate both beliefs in the same space.

I hope your migraine lifts soon.

I think quite a lot of us know your posting history and can see where you are coming from, because we share the feeling. Sheer frustration at being told we are evil bigots for not believing, but refusal, or inability, to explain what exactly we are supposed to believe and why it makes sense to do so.

I and others, too, have asked, on several threads, and in the hope of getting a coherent explanation, a question like: "if a woman is not someone born with a female body, then what is this "woman" that you believe you are?"

The responses that approached an answer to that question (often the question was evaded altogether) don't represent a united approach.

We've had an honest and candid transman who has described what I think amounts to having a defective internal "map" of their body, and is open about not knowing how that has come about in their case, let alone anyone else's.

We've had somebody who talks a lot about personality traits and preferences, and seems ( I think) to be saying that if you take a personality test and the results resemble the majority results for women rather than men, then you count as a woman and can expect to be allowed into women's spaces. (Which rather begs the question of how you decide that a majority of women have X result if you can't decide whether they are a woman until you have a majority of women to compare their results with.)

Then there was at least one person who seemed to think that you are a woman if you can pass as one after hormones, surgery etc. (Which throws everyone who can't pass under the bus, means your identity depends on fooling everyone all of the time, and begs the question of how/whether you were a woman before all the hormones and surgeries happened and if not, why have them in the first place.)

Then there's the "brain sex" option, and allegations that trans people's brains are more like the opposite sex, which either appeals to one particular study that doesn't really prove the point, or rests in faith that some such difference will be discovered in the future so we have to behave now as though it's true.

I think that's about it, except for "I will be very unhappy if you don't go along with what I want, so you are horrible if you don't."

This is the issue. The OP will only listen to people with the same views as they do.

The facts about transsexualism and transvestitism are very clear.

1. You cannot change your sex.
2. You cannot have any understanding of what it is like to be the other sex, other than sexual stereotypes. This is evident, for example, in Elliot Page, who keeps trying to define what it means to be a man in a way that suits her characteristics, rather than what it means for the men who have existed throughout history. She hasn't taken the time to understand the challenges that men go through on a daily basis, and she is using her stereotypical impression about maleness to escape from her own body.
3. Men pose more of a threat to women than women do to men. Therefore, men don't care if a trans man comes into their spaces, but women feel threatened if a male comes into theirs- regardless of whether that male is a risk to them or not.

Regardless of the political and institutional bullying, the above facts don't change. You cannot force people to capitulate to your made-up fantasy about yourself, and you will make more enemies if you tell people they are in the wrong when they speak truth.

If a person hates themselves or is so dysfunctionally aroused by the thought of being seen as the other sex that they want to transition, then there should be a framework and therapy to ensure that they completely understand that they are choosing to be different and they will not be accepted as the sex they want to be because that is impossible.

The OP is asking people with the opposite view actually.

Taztoy I am hoping your migraine lifts and you can get some sleep.

I think it’s much more confused than that.

From those who express trans supporting views, they understand sex and gender are different but gender is more important than ones sex, they also mix up sex and gender frequently, believe it’s ‘nice’ and ‘polite’ to use preferred names and pronouns, feel men should be allowed to compete in women’s sports (because gender is more important than sex and oestrogen reduces testosterone) but transwoman rapists shouldn’t be in female prisons (because of the risk of women being raped and because they’re not true trans), that someone can be perfectly happy being a straight man and still be expected to be a TW if they say so etc etc etc Every discussion is like pinning jello to a wall. Though the young adults I know also enjoy the sense of moral superiority that they get from perpetuating TWAW.

None of it makes actual sense. It’s social media jargon that has circulated and become embedded in discourse with almost no analysis of how it can’t or shouldn’t work. Repeated mindlessly.

I don’t believe many people really do think transwomen are actually women, but certain people feel they ought to believe it because it’s the ‘right’ thing to do for ‘right-thinking’ people such as they.
So they are fervent and outspoken in their ‘belief’ - it adds to their self-worth and is valuable to them. Cognition doesn’t really come into it.
So I don’t really get it either. I do think that there may be some self deception involved or, more kindly, an unwillingness to think of themselves as anything other than good people doing the ‘right’ thing and having the ‘right’ beliefs.

It's really simple.

Some people are different - and they cannot prove this difference, but it affects how they experience the world.

They may be gay, bi, ace, pan or trans. Or have a disability you don't understand because you can't see it and haven't experienced it.

So, listen to them.

if you don't understand trans people, then go and read their own words.

The key is this: do you accept someone's difference, or do you need it proved to you? If so, why?

Trans people are, quite simply, who they say they are. Accepting that you are trans or non-binary is usually a long process which often involves adopting other labels along the way.

If you are sincere, then thank you. But really, you don't have to understand people who are different, just accept them. I don't know what it's like to fancy a woman, or sleep with one - but I'd never question whether gay women exist because I can see that they do. Difference is normal, and I have no interest at all in asking: but why? Why do you exist?

Please ask yourself: would you ask all these questions of a gay person if you yourself are straight? I doubt it. You'd recognise how rude it would be.

The concept of "non-genuine" trans women is a transphobic myth. Trans women have jobs, lives and responsibilities - which they carry out while trans. That's it, that's what being a trans woman is.

A few cis men seem to have tried to gain access to female prisons, but for the most part there is absolutely zero advantage gained pretending to be a trans woman. 'Safe spaces' are a myth. The immense social pressure, difficulties negotiating medical transition, physical exhaustion and danger experienced by all out trans women should be obvious. Trans women are targeted for rape, harassment and violence.

Step outside the GC bubble and understand that trans people are normal humans. Yes, they might look different - so what? Repulsion at a visual difference isn't proof that someone shouldn't exist.

Being trans is normal.

Sexuality isn't gender.

Difference doesn't require an origin story.

Trans people are gay, straight, ace, bi, pan and more - just as straight people are.

Being trans is not a costume, it's who someone is. Plenty of trans people don't dress according to gender stereotypes - but if they dont, transphobic people ridicule them for not looking masculine or feminine enough. This is the point of declaring pronouns - my son often doesn't look trad masculine, but if he's misgendered at college, someone will say "they use he/him" and the reply is always a variant of "okay, cool".

Which, honestly, is great.

it's so difficult to live as an out trans person, that most would choose not to be trans. It makes life a lot harder. No one would be trans unless it meant everything.

Finally: do you remember when parents bombarded CBeebies with complaints because a presenter had limb difference? It was claimed that by being on-screen acting like it was normal to be visibly disabled she was traumatising children. That was repulsion at difference. And, if course, this was exactly why it was so important she was onscreen: to teach children that difference was normal, and didn't need to be interrogated.

So much of transphobia is anger at visual difference. Getting past that, is the first part of the battle. Interrogate why you can't just accept this difference, but need it explained. Why can't you just believe trans people exist, and leave it at that? They're a tiny, oppressed minority, not ever likely to affect your life.

You seem like a good person, and I'm really sure if you met someone trans you'd just chat to them without needing to know anything about their bodies or sex life. You'd talk to them like they were normal, judging them on whether they were friendly or kind - just like anyone else.

Read their own words please. And, thanks.

It's really simple.

Some people are different - and they cannot prove this difference, but it affects how they experience the world.

They may be gay, bi, ace, pan or trans. Or have a disability you don't understand because you can't see it and haven't experienced it.

So, listen to them.

if you don't understand trans people, then go and read their own words.

The key is this: do you accept someone's difference, or do you need it proved to you? If so, why?

Trans people are, quite simply, who they say they are. Accepting that you are trans or non-binary is usually a long process which often involves adopting other labels along the way.

If you are sincere, then thank you. But really, you don't have to understand people who are different, just accept them. I don't know what it's like to fancy a woman, or sleep with one - but I'd never question whether gay women exist because I can see that they do. Difference is normal, and I have no interest at all in asking: but why? Why do you exist?

Please ask yourself: would you ask all these questions of a gay person if you yourself are straight? I doubt it. You'd recognise how rude it would be.

The concept of "non-genuine" trans women is a transphobic myth. Trans women have jobs, lives and responsibilities - which they carry out while trans. That's it, that's what being a trans woman is.

A few cis men seem to have tried to gain access to female prisons, but for the most part there is absolutely zero advantage gained pretending to be a trans woman. 'Safe spaces' are a myth. The immense social pressure, difficulties negotiating medical transition, physical exhaustion and danger experienced by all out trans women should be obvious. Trans women are targeted for rape, harassment and violence.

Step outside the GC bubble and understand that trans people are normal humans. Yes, they might look different - so what? Repulsion at a visual difference isn't proof that someone shouldn't exist.

Being trans is normal.

Sexuality isn't gender.

Difference doesn't require an origin story.

Trans people are gay, straight, ace, bi, pan and more - just as straight people are.

Being trans is not a costume, it's who someone is. Plenty of trans people don't dress according to gender stereotypes - but if they dont, transphobic people ridicule them for not looking masculine or feminine enough. This is the point of declaring pronouns - my son often doesn't look trad masculine, but if he's misgendered at college, someone will say "they use he/him" and the reply is always a variant of "okay, cool".

Which, honestly, is great.

it's so difficult to live as an out trans person, that most would choose not to be trans. It makes life a lot harder. No one would be trans unless it meant everything.

Finally: do you remember when parents bombarded CBeebies with complaints because a presenter had limb difference? It was claimed that by being on-screen acting like it was normal to be visibly disabled she was traumatising children. That was repulsion at difference. And, if course, this was exactly why it was so important she was onscreen: to teach children that difference was normal, and didn't need to be interrogated.

So much of transphobia is anger at visual difference. Getting past that, is the first part of the battle. Interrogate why you can't just accept this difference, but need it explained. Why can't you just believe trans people exist, and leave it at that? They're a tiny, oppressed minority, not ever likely to affect your life.

You seem like a good person, and I'm really sure if you met someone trans you'd just chat to them without needing to know anything about their bodies or sex life. You'd talk to them like they were normal, judging them on whether they were friendly or kind - just like anyone else.

Read their own words please. And, thanks.

I also really really want to talk about what he did. But I can’t do that here. And that upsets me. I’m silenced. Which means I can’t explain just how important it is to me.

Pastebin or similar and link from here. Or a TwiX account. Google Doc, read-only share link.

Even if you write it down and decide not to share, just writing it down might help.

The key is this: do you accept someone's difference, or do you need it proved to you? If so, why?

Even hidden disabilities can be evidenced through observing the disabled person for long enough. I couldn't just claim that I am autistic, I had to be examined.

Past sexual behaviour is evidence of sexual orientation. If a woman is married to a man and has had his children, demonstrating that she's had sex with him and he isn't her "beard", but claimed to be a lesbian, I'd call her a liar.

In the whole of life, we have to prove that we are disabled, prove that we are old enough to buy drink, prove that we are married, have a driving licence, etc. Simply saying "I am, so believe me" doesn't cut it.

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in a god because no such entity has been proven to exist. Someone else saying "well I do, so you're wrong" doesn't make me start believing, because an unevidenced assertion isn't enough to convince me. I need evidence to believe assertions. If I didn't demand evidence, what would stop me from believing that Black people were a kind of talking animal whose rightful role is as slaves, or that the world is ruled by alien lizardmen in skin suits, or that women are too stupid to vote?

Thirty seconds spent on the internet tells me that there are plenty of "trans women" committing male pattern violence. There are some who have been murderers, like that one (Scarlett something?)who killed a cat before going on to murder a man. A small amount of research tells me that "trans women" in prison are more likely to be sex offenders than other men are. This male pattern violence is compelling evidence that behaviourally, as well as physically, these people are very much men.

There is no evidence to support a man's assertion that he's a woman inside. There's plenty of evidence to indicate that the men who claim this behave very much like men. And most still have their dicks, meaning that they continue to pose a material risk of rape and consequent forced pregnancy to women.

Some parents being closed-minded about a kid's TV presenter isn't in any way comparable to recognising that sperm meeting an egg leads to pregnancy and that "trans women" are born with the equipment to impose that pregnancy risk on women by force.

We've had an honest and candid transman who has described what I think amounts to having a defective internal "map" of their body, and is open about not knowing how that has come about in their case, let alone anyone else's.

https://neurolaunch.com/physical-autism/ 40% of Tavi referrals were autistic, massively overrepresented compared to the general population. The body not quite being where the brain thinks it should be is an autistic trait. Autism is neurological, with structural differences in the brain. https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2025.1633658/full

I tried reading this; but there are more inaccuracies, straw men (people?), misrepresentations and obvious attempts at fake gotcha's in the first five paragraphs than I can deal with.

I'm not going to read any further.

EDIT: I lied - I skipped ahead. It doesn't improve.

I'm happy to accept trans-identifying men as different, all day long. But I'm not going to accept them as women, ever, because they aren't.

Trans people are, quite simply, who they say they are.

You know perfectly well you're talking rubbish. If a trans-identifying man says he's a woman, then, quite simply, he's not at all what he says he is. He's still a man. Any more than he's Queen Cleopatra. Or a cat.

Well it kind of does. How can women have single sex spaces if some men are allowed into them? So to give TIM their “right” (which they don’t have BTW) to female spaces, women lose their right to single sex spaces. And who decides who “passes” and therefore gets let in?

@TransParentlyAnnoyed
The concept of "non-genuine" trans women is a transphobic myth. Trans women have jobs, lives and responsibilities - which they carry out while trans. That's it, that's what being a trans woman is.

so men like Isla Bryson, Karen white etc are transwomen and should be allowed in female spaces? Or are they not “transwomen? There are two male NBA players claiming they are women. According to you, we should believe them and allow them to play in WMBA right? Or are they not “true and honest” transwomen?

You're trying to understand something that can't be understood, especially by those who claim to be it. There is no logic or reason to it, it's all based on subjective feels, therefore it can't be explained.
The bigger picture is that it's part of a manifestly stupid ideology, that is nilhistic and self destructive, that has captured the imagination of the self absorbed, the gullible and the vulnerable.
You shouldn't waste time on squaring the circle because it can't be done.
You know what you think, stick with that.