Wanting to discuss trans people with non gender critical folks

[Taztoy]

I’ve been on another thread - and other threads - and I’d like to talk to anyone who believes that trans women are women and trans men are men.

I don’t understand how that works and I’ve tried on other threads to get engagement , and it hasn’t worked.

so. I’m starting a thread.

I promise I am asking genuinely and I really do want to debate.

I don’t understand how I can tell if a trans woman is genuine.

I don’t understand how the laws could be written to make it work.

I don’t understand how it works as it competes with sex based rights.

I will probably regret starting this but I’d really like to understand

I posted here because people on the other thread said. Here is an echo chamber and no one wants to listen.

I want to listen. And discuss. I’ve tried for months.

so no, chat or AIBU is not more appropriate.

Its a board to discuss sex and gender and how that interacts with feminism. Which is what OP is trying to do.

This is the gender discussion board, the OP wants to discuss gender....how would AIBU be better?

Cross posted with everyone telling me I’m wrong. Yes- I realised just a moment too late.

So if I said I was Cleopatra and had the entitlement to the power she had over life and death of commoners, you’d be concerned as to how to square up my rights to put someone in death?

I have already explained why I don’t feel comfortable with analogies about death.

Not only would OP not be trying to square those rights, the TRAs (or Queen Cleopatra equivalent) wouldn't be fighting for you to have that right either. In fact, I think everyone else would think you were insane and need locking up.

So what OP is asking for is why men claiming to be women are believed when someone claiming to be Queen C would be considered insane.

Thank you.

Isn't it like some people believe in God and you can't understand why, they just do?

I don’t understand why you felt a need for this particular thread since we have
been doing this over and over again.

it will just attract the usual suspects, not the people on the thread we are both on, which I assume you are hoping to engage.

I’m talking about sex based rights vs trans rights as per equality act in the uk. I’m not saying anyone should declare themselves to have the right to murder anyone. Someone tried to do that to me and I have both the physical and mental scars.

I don’t know either. I’ve already said I think it was a bad idea.

Maybe but people believing in god aren’t trying to take away my right to a single sex space or spaces.

But doesn’t “square those rights” mean to make them exist together? TRA won’t accept anything but total adoration and compliance

But there really is no logical answer OP, other than 'because they want to be' and people stand with them usually because they haven't been subjected to any kind of violence or sexual mistreatment from men, so therefore any insinuation that could happen is just hyperbole according to them

Indeed they do. But isn't that why OP has asked for their opinions not ours (GC). She is GC so wants to hear "the other side"

Hi OP this is really nice to see on here. But I don’t think if you want to hear from non gender critical people you will find them on Mumsnet, certainly not on this board. You can’t have the discussion you want here. I would ask some people in real life. And/or, here is some good reading material that fits the bill: "Transgender: a Dialogue,” a conversation between Sophie-Grace Chappell (trans philosopher) and Holly Lawford-Smith (gender-critical philosopher), Chappell writes in first person about her own identity, then Lawford-Smith responds from a gender-critical position,and they go back and forth directly on your three questions — how to tell if someone's trans is "genuine," what self-ID does to sex-based spaces, whether trans women are "really" women.

aeon.co/essays/transgender-identities-a-conversation-between-two-philosophers

Thank you for this. I will read it tomorrow.

This is going to be one of those threads isn't it?

Look I'm so reasonable and how everyone here is so unreasonable.

Not at all Red.

not at all.

im a regular here and I just want to understand. I don’t. At all. And I am spiralling trying to understand and I was on another thread and we who post here were called all sorts and I don’t understand why. So I thought I would start an ill advised thread that really wasn’t a good idea.

and now I’m getting people who haven’t read my posts, and I’m not in a great headspace and I’m struggling to explain myself and people are telling me I’ve not the right to post here and I don’t understand why.

Well the simple answer is, you don’t.
if any man is allowed into any female only space then it isn’t a female only space, men get what they want and women don’t.
if men are kept out of all female only spaces then women get what they want and men don’t. There is no compromise on this, one side wins and only one side.

This Sophie Grace Chappell?

I’m gender critical too, but as I understand it the whole thing is based on what meaning one gives to the word "woman". There are nutcases like India Willoughby who are males who actually believe they are now female, but I think most transwomen and their supporters think "woman" now just means a person who behaves in the ways traditionally (stereotypically) associated with females.

It’s crazy, of course.

You don’t need to square any circles.

Men should never be given access to what belongs to women.

There is no coherent answer that gives access to some men, but not other men.