Wanting to discuss trans people with non gender critical folks

[Taztoy]

I’ve been on another thread - and other threads - and I’d like to talk to anyone who believes that trans women are women and trans men are men.

I don’t understand how that works and I’ve tried on other threads to get engagement , and it hasn’t worked.

so. I’m starting a thread.

I promise I am asking genuinely and I really do want to debate.

I don’t understand how I can tell if a trans woman is genuine.

I don’t understand how the laws could be written to make it work.

I don’t understand how it works as it competes with sex based rights.

I will probably regret starting this but I’d really like to understand

I found in my discrete friendship groups that my male gay friends would parrot at me TWAW, quite early on in all of this. I also have found that increasingly my male gay friends are seeking out other gay males for friendships. Not sexual. I feel it is a little bit 'circle the wagons'. Ie only have people in our circle who are like us. I have known these friends for over 30 years. I have never felt so alienated from them, but none will have any sort of discussion about the impact to women. I have decided that my support for women and girls is jmportant, so genuinely I think my friendships with these men will fade. They have supporters eg families who have trans identified individuals. I am now starting to see interaction towards me after years of frostiness. I can only assume the TI indiv is no longer trans. Well not sure how i feel about that.

I believe that. But some people don’t. And they say basically that we are nasty and transphobic and all sorts and I don’t understand why. I was just trying to understand. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to upset people here. This was a bad idea. Time to name change and slink away. I can’t talk about what matters to me and I’ve been completely misunderstood in what I was hoping for with this thread.

im a regular. I’m not a bad actor and I cannot tell you how sorry I am.

sorry again.

Hi OP - I am really sorry to hear of your terrible experience.

And I can understand that you want to have a discussion about an issue.

But the problem is that this forum because it is about for women who are gender critical and believe in women's sex based rights, none of us can tell you.

We can all make guesses, write rude statements about it is just another men's rights movement.

So you are asking non-believers to try and think like those that are believers.

Not saying that others haven't started threads with a similar question, but more often than not answers are not exactly flippant but are just speculation by a those whose are sceptics.

I said on another thread, and your OP reminds me, I am beginning to think MNHQ should be asked to set up a forum called something like trans ideology so that if there are those who believe in it, and those like you who want to ask questions can have a dialogue.

I hope you dont think I am being a brusque, but given how you feel at the moment and your history am concerned that you will end up feeling more frustrated.

Best wishes and hoping you can just switch off for a bit, and get a good nights sleep.

Apologies @OPi should have been clear I am gender critical, but wanted to share my observations of my clearly trans supporting friends.

Thank you but you’ve misunderstood my motives.

never mind. It was a bad idea and I’m really really really sorry.

I don't believe you can change your gender but if I meet a trans person I'm likely to just go along with it and nay ask questions to understand their perspective.

personally I think it's a mental health problem for the most part but if they go for all the ops and commit ill use whatever pronouns they like.

soery the post isn't going the way you wanted, tbh I don't think anyone really understands the mindset so it must be even more confusing with autism

@Taztoy I think I can guess what you really meant

Is it that it seems very incredibly strange that all this is going on? And you know that there are well intentioned people who feel strongly about this so you’re looking for some reality to explain what’s going on because you’re thinking there must be some otherwise how could all this happen..

also sorry if it seems like a stupid question but do you understand the difference with transsexual and transgender?

I know you are a long term poster here OP and I also know about your history.
It’s very telling that the genderists never answer you when you mention your history and ask why you don’t deserve single sex provision.
They have no coherent argument. It’s much easier to use lies and hyperbole instead. So I doubt you’ll get any responses from them but well done for trying.

I do understand the difference yes?

Thank you for understanding where I was coming from.

Hi OP, I think you might be on the wrong thread if you are looking for non GC input, but hey ho.
I belive that a lot of the women who support the idea that men can be women have a range of influencing factors:

1. They are third wave feminists who believe that the #ibelieveher movement applies to this situation
2. They are conflict avoidant
3. Their social circle or child's social circle are vocal believers, i.e. donate proudly to "wear it purple day" or whatever is the local support day/week/month for LGBTIQ+ that their kids school supports
4. They are not practised at asserting their own boundaries
5. They think it's edgy and progressive and believe that it's feminism's job to solve problems for everyone (intersectionalism)
6. They are genuinely compassionate, and believe that trans-identified people "are the most oppressed people on the plant"
7. They don't feel comfortable calling out lies or telling people they don't believe what they are saying
8. They have a trans-identified relative and feel compelled to go along with it (but don't believe they are being compelled)
9. They have absorbed the mainstream media which portrays people who question gender ideology as hateful, and that "trans kids" are a suicide risk for example

And the big one 10. They apply "miserly cognition" (look it up - its a cool term) to this topic and probably any others that put them in conflict with their work/social circles.

As for male supporters, I don't really know. Number 10 probably fits; also some men hate or don't care about womens rights. Probably all of the above, but I can't speak for men who believe.

Please dont believe I had any "motive".

I am just saying that if for example you wanted to know about a religious believe, you wouldn't ask those who dont share that religious believe.

That's all.

So to ask those who are, mainly if not all, gender critical why someone would think they can change sex when they dont believe anyone can change sex, they cant explain it.

Only those who do believe they can change sex can explain why they think that.

We can writ about our experience of how it feels to have a man say he identifies as or even believes he is a woman, but not ever understand how he could think that.

So it is because I dont want you to think you are being dismissed.

But more that it is unlikely that anyone on here can tell you. We can only speculate.

Sorry if my saying this doesn't seem helpful.

No need to be sorry, it’s good for all of us to have our views challenged.

But just because people think we are nasty or bigoted for thinking this, doesn’t mean they are right. They aren’t right.

The people who decided TWAW (or some variation of that) called it wrong. We can treat non gender confirming men with respect without having to play pretend about their sex. That ask was completely unreasonable.

@Taztoy i am familiar with you as a person who contributes here.

and I am sure you recognise me.

I am just going to now say this to you as a person who deeply cares about what has happened to you.

and cares about your well being.

I just feel that you are putting yourself in harms way with this thread.

not because you are stupid or wrong, just very fragile because of what has happened to you.

i dont want you to shut up or stop being here.

i want you to be safe, whilst you are in recovery, self retrieval, and surviving.

i say this from my heart.

I'm gender critical and believe womens rights need to be protected. i'm also (now) the mother of a MTF trans child.

still trying to work out how I walk the tightrope I am currently on but the problem as I see it (and did see it before my child came out) is that this issue has ended up with "sides" - and I think it's incredibly difficult to have a discussion about trying to find solutions.

i don't think you can square the circle - you need to find a way of balancing rights in a way that is reasonable and proportionate. but the extremes on both sides of the debate shout loudest, use derogatory language and seek only to campaign for their side. which in one way is fair enough - we all have our beliefs. but if that is the approach that is taken, of campaigning/winning, then there is absolutely no way to find a route forward that isn't damaging for some people. and the people damaged most badly aren't necessarily the campaigners.

i don't normally post on FWR any more because it's too heated/detailed/has a long history (which I have only dipped in and out of over the years) and it does feel as though the debate goes round and round in circles. but your posts struck a chord with me. don't think i have any answers for you but i hope you are ok.

But ultimately you need to face up to the fact that there is no ‘balancing’ to be done here.

It’s zero sum. Either women have rights to single sex spaces/services or they don’t. Pick a lane.

If you’re asking , why do ‘ trans women’ believe they have a right to women’s spaces, it’s because they are men. Men have always believed they have the toto whatever they want.

if you’re asking, what do ‘trans people’ believe, it would depend on who you ask.
the trans community is so broad now it covers everything from old school transsexual to furrys and age play.

some get kick out of it, some have mental health problems, some have been indoctrinated some are confused and some are just going along for the shits and giggles.

they cannot agree each other so we don’t stand a chance. Helen Webberly says if you give cross sex hormones to a teenager they go through that puberty.
then others say, no one ever said you could change sex, we’re talking about gender.

that also doesn't mean that trans women must use male bathrooms, or trans men use women's bathrooms - for example. the idea that only sex matters doesn't reflect the reality of trans people who pass and would be distressed/distress others if they used services for their sex. it's only a zero sum in terms of defining sex but not in terms of defining facilities and services offered to people...

Third spaces has long been posited as a solution. What’s the issue with that?

Fourth space please. Disabled people fought hard for the spaces they have.

yes, agreed

Show me people who pass there is not any

anyone who has chosen to alter their appearance in an attempt to ‘pass’ as the opposite sex does not deserve more empathy than an individual that has experience violent trauma against there will.
and why should a woman deserve less empathy than a man?

but the extremes on both sides of the debate shout loudest, use derogatory language and seek only to campaign for their side

The extremes being those threatening to rape women with a spiky rolling pin versus women who just say 'he's a man'? There Is absolutely no comparison to the vile behaviour and threats from TRAs going back the other way.

OP, they have no argument. The reason they say this is all about 'hate' means they can just stop there and never get to the end of the thought process. They are all full of shit.

It would be wonderful to truly understand the trans POV and goodness knows I've tried, and keep trying.

But even if we do get a better understanding, it won't help OP because she can't use multi-user single-sex services if she knows that people born male are allowed to use them, and I doubt that would change.

(I could rustle up a few arguments for this arrangement being a bit safer than she thinks, but I'm not going to because I don't think it will change her feelings and I don't really feel I have the right to try.)

So we'll just have to keep trucking with trying to get back our single-sex services, and being called bigots for it.