terrifying, dangerous, abusive "advice" on r/transgenderuk

[mardirousse]

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1vo4oqz/hypothetical_situation/.

Dad wants to prevent his effeminate 15 year old boy from developing an adam's apple or deep voice, so "hypothetically" asks if he could back and forth to France for puberty blockers.

gets loads of "support", told he's a wonderful father, advised to put the lad on diy estrogen instead as it's more appropriate "at that age" (15!).

Surely platforms can't allow this, legally! it's so dangerous. I'm really upset. His poor little lad.

If the anti- women posters weren't so angry, emotional and nasty I might take their postings a little more seriously. TPA particularly, can be quite offensive. Doesn't feel like debate, more like an attempt to shout FWR posters down or throw insults and constantly shout ' bigot'.
That's not debate.
I think FWR are very clued up on safeguarding actually and don't have a 'narrow, blinkered viewpoint' quite the opposite.

Perhaps all those people chanting TWAW and spouting "trans kids" cannot admit what they are doing may have very serious consequences later. Just look at the venom spouted at de-transitioners!
And the 'anti-trans' bit! Many posters do have trans people in our lives.

I have tried reading 'Erin's posts but find them quite rambling so it puts me off.

I suspect "reddit dad" may not be real, which in itself is concerning. But to read the replies he gets along the lines of " yaaaaay you great dad you" (I'm not quoting directly here, of course) are perhaps seriously gratifying??
Seems quite bizarre. And what of the child's mother?

It strikes me that if a parent posted on MN in this way about doing something “for their child” the largest number of replies they would receive would be along the lines of “what does your child want?” That no one there, or their cheerleaders here, has even raised that is telling. And chilling.

There's a strong rearguard DARVO going on at the moment, isn't there?

The UK Supreme Court saying that taking the word 'woman' to mean anything other than 'biological female' would make a nonsense of equality legislation; the IOC and other sporting bodies agreeing that categories of sports/within sports should be maintained; public opinion polls showing increased support for sex-based rights for women and men - all these show a shift towards a re-assertion of fact-based laws, regulations and public attitudes.

This is happening because it is increasingly obvious that there is a big non-factual void at the centre of the transgender movement: human beings cannot change sex. And if a male remains a male from the day he is born to the day he dies, if a female remains a female from the day she is born to the day she dies, a movement organised around the slogans TWAW/TWAM are doomed to failure.

For a while , the disproportionate demands of a tiny % of the population, who already have the same human rights as everyone else, were taken so seriously that they have impacted on education, medicine, the media, the law, even language itself.

Future sociologists will puzzle over how on earth such a small number of people with such flimsy arguments managed to have so much power over some societies - what was it about the zeitgeist in those societies that made them accept such irrational demands?

But all irrational movements have their day, not all of the people were taken in by 'TWAW/TMAM' all of the time, and eventually even the most elaborate houses built on sand collapse.

The rearguard action is bound to be loud and frenetic and DARVOish, as we can see from recent posts here and on other threads - the current DARVO vehicle is 'cult'.

[DARVO stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender - a well-known tactic in manipulative personal relationships, but obviously can also be used on an wider level when scrutiny of a social movement reaches a level which questions the validity of its basic tenets..]

Edited - posted wrong thread. Page reloaded and went to a different thread ... this keeps happening...?!

Wow. This is just awful. Increasingly, I feel that I don’t understand the world in which we live.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the TRAs on this thread really were somewhat non-plussed at the women being concerned about children. It's a recurring theme.

The head scratching and bewilderment, could, of course, be a really crap attempt to shut women down. Or it could be a genuine cluelessness about how normal adults view safeguarding.

Because, they also seem shocked that any of the women here even know any people who are trans, much less have children or extended family who identify as such. Their own echo chamber leaves them ignorant of other people.

Or, they're just trying to shut women down, because safeguarding is anathema to them.

Bizarre, really, because trying to shut down safeguarding is a red flag aspect OF safeguarding.

You can spot it from space.

Happened to me twice yesterday...

Well, what is your argument?

That attempts to increase the certainty of safety, efficacy and good outcomes of a course of treatment, and to reduce instances if avoidable harm from a treatment being wrongly given are absolutely bad? And that regulating, gatekeeping and governing a risky, unproven and life altering set of drugs should be stopped?

And that not regulating the treatment and drugs would result in safer and better outcomes for all?

Because you would have to go a long way to find parallel arguments in other spheres.

And that not regulating the treatment and drugs would result in safer and better outcomes for all?

If I had to make a stab in the dark...

Oh marvellous. A thread in which people who have spent years campaigning to prevent the sensible, regulated and judicious prescription of medicine now suddenly realise that in the absence of such people will resort to sourcing it separately.

The father in question seems quite responsible in still seeking treatment by a medical professional in France, rather than DIY.

But a couple of total red herrings already in this thread:

1. No indication whatsoever that this guys daughter has no say in this. The obvious starting point is that he has a trans daughter - not that he has a son that he (the father) is insisting must be trans.
2. It seems clear that his daughter already identifies and expresses herself as a girl. The father's question is not about how he can 'trans' his 'gay son', but rather how he can best help his trans daughter avoid the long term difficulties in transitioning and passing that will arise if she goes fully through male puberty.

The notion that there are legions of fathers out there that are virulently homophobic, to the point of pushing their children towards a life that is much more challenging because of societal attitudes, but not even slightly transphobic, is utter, utter nonsense.

Spoiler alert - virtually every homophobe that exists in the UK is also massively transphobic. Virtually no parent who has a problem with a gay son would prefer to have a trans daughter.

I presume the “this is what happens when you ban something” posters spend their evenings outside the offy offering to buy alcohol for 15 year olds.

TBH I wouldn’t be that surprised.

You think children should be given castration drugs to stop a boy's voice breaking?

This really is the 'saying the quiet part out loud' thread.

Feminine boys don't need to be "cured" with illegal medication.

What a terrible analogy. But if you think it's an appropriate one, do you think any parent who allows their 15 year old a glass of wine with dinner is abusive?

Since anti-trans folks are such fans of court judgments, then the judgments in both Gillick and Bell put to bed the idea that those under 16 are inherently incapable of consenting to treatment even where it has significant consequences.

Again though, the result of years of campaigning is that instead of a child being assessed properly for Gillick competency by a UK-regulated medical professional, they are instead pushed into a black market for treatment.

I’m yet to see any condemnation of those people who advised the father to skip the PBs and go straight to cross sex hormones. Any comment along the lines of “I understand why parents might do this but sourcing this type of drug without any medical supervision is extremely dangerous”. Just evangelical cries of nothing much more than “Give the boy the titty biscuits”.

There is NOTHING that these people will condemn apparently.

It would seem not. I mean they appear to believe that a man who apparently sees a support group for his child as a way to expand his dating pool is a contender for Dad of the Year.

The notion that there are legions of fathers out there that are virulently homophobic, to the point of pushing their children towards a life that is much more challenging because of societal attitudes, but not even slightly transphobic, is utter, utter nonsense.

I know, let's contact the Tavistock and ask them to comment...oh...wait

can you explain what identifies as and expresses herself as a girl means please? Preferably without resorting to sexist stereotypes? I’ll wait……

Never mind you can contact that homophobic pair from Mermaids instead who freely admit that they turned their boy into a "girl" because the father couldn't tolerate a boy playing with "girls" toys.

It is indeed bizarre that some posters are surprised? offended? angry? that there is concern here for the well-being of one 15 year old child, or all children of all ages. I'd have thought that if you're choosing to post on something called 'Mumsnet', you'd know that a keen interest in child welfare would kinda come with the territory.. not all MNers are mothers, and there are lots of other discussion topics, but it's hardly surprising to find an interest in child welfare on here, is it?

But when we ['we' = participants in discussions on these threads, not 'members of a cult'🙄] comment on cases like this, we're not just drawing on our experiences as mothers, including mothers of children who have gone down the trans route.

Some of us have actually lived through 'gender dysphoria' [using that disputed terms as a short-hand]. Some of us have had suicidal ideation because of it.
Some of us thought we'd rather die than go through puberty and become adult human females.

We know that growing up, especially growing up female, can be agonising for some children. Several of us have stated that had puberty blockers, hormones, surgery been available to us as gender-confused girls, we'd have jumped at the opporuntunity.
I can see a younger me beating down the doors to be one of the Chosen Few in the PB clinical trials.

We speak from experience. But we don't just rely on personal experience, we also do our research and share our findings; one of the most significant figures is that the huge majority of children who present with 'gender dysphoria' will just grow out of it.

Gender-related distress will alleviate for around 80% of pre-teen children once they become teenagers - Stats for Gender
[the primary sources are given, in case anyone is unhappy the the source of this article which is connected to Genspect- they can check them themselves.]

That 15 year old boy is unhappy now, but it is more than likely that, with care and love and support, he will accept the fact that he is and always will be male, and hopefully live his best life as the kind of man he wants to be.
Which is what I and other survivors of 'gender dysphoria' did.
He deserves to be given the same chance we got to grow up, supported by loving care and above all the truth that he will always be a man, regardless.

Joining you on the waiting bench - very keen to finally have someone explain why a mysterious thing that has nothing in common with the physical sex of the body and nothing in common with the social expectations assigned to one type of body or the other and is so special and individual and personal that you can never assume you know what anyone else's is unless they tell you is nevertheless and at the same time a thing that makes someone to all intents and purposes that matter totally interchangeable with and indisguishable from people of the opposite body sex, and not at all in any way like people of the same body sex.

Now, it took me a while to type that, so by now I'm sure someone will already have given a nice clear answer to something so totally fundamental to this belief system, right?

Well quite.

No, they don't admit anything of the sort.

Jackie Green first expressed that she was a girl at 4, continued to do so until she received puberty blockers at 12 or 13. As far as I know she is now in her thirties and continues to identify as a trans woman.

Susie Green reflected once that she and her husband had different attitudes towards homosexuality. The leap from that to assuming that a homophobic father actively preferred to have a trans daughter than a gay son is entirely spurious.

I'm keen for people to point out all these supposedly liberal pro-trans dads who are virulently anti-gay.

Provide the stats that its is 'more than likely' that a 15 year old with gender dysphoria will desist with time.

Detransition is obviously a thing, but there are no figures supporting the idea that the majority of people who transition regret it, or indeed that desistence when gender dysphoria has persisted for many years is at all common.

Susie Green's example is a good one, actually. Because here you had a four year old child expressing that they were a girl. Her parents did nothing until she was six, so there you have a child that persisted in their gender identity despite no particular affirmation or encouragement. Only when she was six did her parents start to affirm her identity, and then there was no medical treatment until she was 12 or 13. By that point, persisting in a gender identity for nearly a decade gave a very good indication that she was highly unlikely to desist.

Because contrary to claims here, regret rates among people who have transitioned is extremely low, and considerably lower than many other forms of medical treatment.