Are we a cult?

[CyclingSam]

I keep reading that sex realists, of which I am one, are a cult. Perhaps a genderist could be so kind as to explain what a cult is, and why we qualify. Sometimes one of us calls them a cult too. Who has a better case, hmmm?

Madigan wasn't a name I was expecting to be reminded of today. My, how things / time can change your perspective.

Sorry, I don't agree that bad wardrobe choices even on TV legitimise having undignified screengrabs taken and shared.

I do have issues with describing this as "upskirting". It can be, but it isn't automatically. It's down to the motivation of the person who first captured the image. And in this case, the motivation was not to sexualise or objectify so it's not upskirting. (It's probably very hard to upskirt a man because the underlying gender power constructs are different. A woman on a hen do upskirting a guy in a kilt to laugh at with her friends is the best example I can think of. )

But misuse of labelling aside, I do have issues with pretending that JKR is just nastily mocking another woman's wardrobe choices when what she is actually doing is giving context to a transwoman's pattern of sexist beliefs about "womanhood" and what it is to live as a "woman".

Which 'made up word' are you referring to? I'm not aware of any made up word that my sex and gender understanding is premised on.

It is very much like:

Woman: there is a man in the toilets wanking
Police Officer: prove it
woman: Here I took a photo
Police Officer: I am arresting you for harassment and for creating pornographic images, go straight to jail for 2 years.

Men: why don't women speak out
Women: we did and it did not end well
Men: well, I never saw you speaking out and have never heard of it ending well, you are just all liars.

I don't think it's particularly undignified. I think it just shows a lot of his thighs, which any picture inevitably would, given that they aren't covered.

However, I accept that opinions on this will differ.

ETA: I understand why, in this context the fishnets and miniskirt made women uncomfortable, but I assume that Wallace would argue that they are just clothes, and in that context it's just a photo of a man who chose an outfit that doesn't cover his thighs.

A depressingly accurate summary

I think I'm time, that event will standout as one of the most significant.

"Sorry, I don't agree that bad wardrobe choices even on TV legitimise having undignified screengrabs taken and shared."

I agree with you, but I think there's a difference between that and sharing photos of TiMs like Fred in this instance, especially when TRAs explain that they are just being mocked for "performing feminine behavioural examples" as it was described upthread.

I know you know this already, but I think it's important to point out again that JKR was not posting the photo to mock his outfit choice, or even just to mean spiritedly show a bad screenshot for public mockery. She was posting it to show an example of a man exerting the power over women which was afforded him by Gender Ideology and a trans identity.

I’m giving reasons posters may name change, other than those you gave. Often people just jump to ‘bad faith’ or TRA for no good reason.

Plenty of men, including me, have been told not to get our knickers in a twist. It's a common phrase that isn't understood by most people to be about women rather than men. But I won't get my knickers in a twist about you having a different understanding. Language is imprecise. I try not to assume the worst about what people mean.

Isn't the word "knickers" the shortened name of the modern garment that began as "knickerbockers"?

And weren't knickerbockers originally worn by men?

So maybe it's possible that "don't get your knickers in a twist" started life as a common saying starting from the time one man said it towards another man 😁

From George Eliot to Andy Capp:

https://wordhistories.net/2018/09/30/knickers-twist/

Great, as long as you understand I wasn't suggesting just because some behave as I described, that all name changers do.

The context of my post was in reply to a PP falsely claiming the only motivation to care if a "new" name is actually an old poster is some sort of childish tribalism. That's the context in which I replied and in which my comment about some name changers is relevant.

I am reiterating this not to say you are wrong, but to highlight you are making a different point not undermining mine.

The behaviour I describe does exist. It may not be many individuals but they (1) post very actively so by volume it's a significant enough to affect the tenor of the board so it's important to recognise it. We do ourselves a disservice if we pretend it doesn't happen.

(1) I say they - it is possible it's all the same person but I think there's a few regulars with different hot buttons and hobby horses.

"Thou hast got thy legs into twisted hose there" 😁

That's really interesting, thank you!

Woman as opposed to female? An ideology that puts those two words in opposition, in any context whatsoever, is utterly bonkers.

The examples given are mostly men using the phrase "Don't get your knickers in a twist" to other men. The first use is in a 1971 Andy Capp cartoon with Andy telling the male rent collector not to get his knickers in a twist. This is certainly my experience of the phrase that it's neither gendered nor misogynistic.

I'm think that in some parts of the UK 'knickers' is used interchangeably for men's and women's pants.

Ah yes, I saw an adult female human driving a car very well yesterday. And the day before several adult female humans (or do I mean adult human females?) did an amazing job looking after a confused old man adult male human in a care home.

I don't think that, technically, he was flashing. But he was pushing a boundary as far as he thought he could get away with. And I have little doubt that this was a deliberate, somewhat aggressive, display.

This is genuinely super interesting (and fun!). Thanks.

It’s less the word ‘knickers’ or the specific phrase for me I think - I think it’s more the tone of it (I’d put it in the same category as eg. ‘calm down, dear’ etc…. Used to imply a woman is being a bit ‘hysterical’!

Ah! I see.

It's not that the phrase is misogynistic... anymore.

It's not even what she said.

It's that she didn't take the proper ladylike tone while she said it, in your opinion?

I'll ask again, third time lucky! Have you told IW off for sharing those photos of Fred yet? Or do you only save your scorn for women like JKR?

Edited for spelling error

I’d like to thank this thread for sending me back to watch Peter Tatchell mutter “no more wine”.

I don't believe GC/TERFery is a cult, but I find it fascinating that there are so many replies to this thread. I think I woke up today to the message "there are 150 new replies" lol.

You DO know exactly what I mean about the sort of language used to dismiss women. And admitting that would in no way undermine your gender critical beliefs 🤷‍♀️ it would show a genuine commitment to the feminism bit of being a gender critical feminist.

I haven’t ’told off’ IW, but I also haven’t ’told off’ JKR. I am not a person sending her any kind of harassment!

If you read the discussion, you’ll see it only came up because somebody ASKED what people thought JKR had done wrong, and I said this is one thing people think is wrong and I agree with them. I didn’t then do a long list of things other people have also done wrong, because that’s not (usually) how conversations discussions work.

Theres a lot of pointing fingers about derailing but I think it’s very much what you’re doing here.

and I don’t want to tone police and you don’t need to be ‘ladylike’ (whatever that means!) oh my account, but I would observe that my last message to you WAS fairly warm and recognised a little bit of fun in a fairly bleak thread for people on both sides, and your response back is a bit weirdly aggressive and demanding!

Wow! So first you decided I'm a misogynist for using a phrase that is used equally by men and women to both men and women, then you told me to reflect on how I speak because
"some women" (ie you) think I'm sexist and dismissive. Then you decide it's the tone YOU attributed to my words that you don't like. And then you were upset because YOU were making assumptions that I was implying you were a hysterical woman?

So much to unpack there. And so little fucks given by me to unpack it.

Like I said before, I thought you were a bloke.