Different instinctive reactions to men and trans women in public

[Waheymum]

It's occurred to me that I have crossed the road to avoid potentially dodgy men countless times in my life, but never a transwoman, even though I know that transwomen pose exactly the same threats as men do. I'll notice transwomen and recognise that they are trans, but I don't have the same socially-conditioned flight response.

Does anyone else experience this?

This but the fact that one is disguised as a woman makes me doubly wary.

If I am out on my own at night and I hear a man walking behind me (yes, after 69 years on this planet, I can tell) then I cross the road. I do so without looking behind me because it's their sex, not their gender identity that is relevant to me.

Exactly, you can tell, I think it’s instinctual and we pick up on things without being conscious of it.

Absolutely Lexi - I think that sadly the possibility of abuse would be uppermost in most TW’s minds.

I have only rarely felt compelled to cross a road to avoid any individual. I’m more likely to cross if I see a gang of teenagers arsing about. Usually boys. I have encountered a trans woman who lives near our local shopping centre a handful of times, teetering along on very wonky stilettos. That’s about it. I haven’t crossed the road to avoid him because, like the majority of men, he seems to be just going about his business. In his case trying not to fall over.

So, incidentally, when were you in prison before male people were being put into female prisons? During when they were put in female prisons? Or after they were removed?

I felt like you re gangs of teenagers messing around and would avoid them but then I realised that I’m actually invisible to them and could walk right through the group and they’d not react at all!

These are the examples of ‘violent’ language.

“all trans women are sex fetishes”

”you'll hint that they are sex offenders and paedophiles too”.

Compared to:

Threats to rape with splintery rolling pins (as per one poster who was posting in MN at the time)

Decapitate TERFs. https://x.com/gussiegrips/status/1962871684718866848?s=46

and the queen for associating with JK Rowling

x.com/bindelj/status/2081746349075177490?s=46

Punch terfs https://x.com/sorelle_arduino/status/1677950163556474880?s=46

This site below stopped aggregating content because it was just too much

https://terfisaslur.com

Then there is this one from last weekend too, complete with throat slitting action.

https://x.com/MrAndyNgo/status/2081027090921472480?s=20

Notice that the person doing the slitting the throat action is masked up and the people that the masked activist has recognised have no masks and and are not acting in any way intimidating.... I believe this was at Pride, which both the people the activist has done the slitting of the throat symbol at are there as part of the LGB umbrella.

But... sure... 'both sides'.

’Both sides’ is a very very weak argument and every single fucking day there is a slew of evidence why someone claiming ‘both sides’ is using completely assymetrical measurement to then demonise female people who disagree with male people being included in female single sex provisions. It is not just bad faith, it is outright dishonest.

There’s a trans woman locally - years ago he would have been called a transvestite because he spends most of the time presenting in male coded clothes, but chooses to spend weekends and bank holidays in female coded fetish gear, skirts so short you can see everything, inches high heels, and this marks him out as dodgy to most women.

It turns out he gets off to seeing women’s fear of him, and also gets off at the humiliation he gets from men. It’s an odd combination.
I’m not sure I’d feel any more wary of a half naked tattooed tramp that a man who deliberately sets out to make people feel uncomfortable, and who uses the current TWAW environment to take even more advantage of it.

Hey ho though, predatory men will find a way. Pity so many women are cheering them on.

I feel a bit disgusted and uneasy when I a transwoman. Same for someone who is clearly drug affected or seriously mentally unwell. I would avoid all.

Here’s the splintery rolling pin one, courtesy of AidaP, a trans identifying man and prolific poster on these boards until he was outed as a violent, rapey piece of work. Note the humorous juxtaposition of the words rolling and Rowling, who says these people are devoid of wit and humour?

Well what a delightful chap he is.

I don't think I've ever knowingly encountered a trans woman outside of a well-lit, busy environment (where I would very rarely cross the street to avoid anyone anyway), so I don't know. I suspect I might not behave that much differently.

But how people are dressed makes a difference. I'd be more likely to cross to avoid someone in a tracksuit than a suit and tie. A man in a dress? I don't know - it could go either way. I often relax walking at night when I see a figure in the distance and then, as they get closer, clock them as female (which in the dark is often because of long hair or female clothes, I can't work out any more than that). If I'd judged someone as female and then realised I was wrong, I don't imagine that would do my anxiety over being attacked much good.

Women saying male people cannot be female has been described as ‘violence’ in the past.

I would suggest it takes some determination to attempt to suppress women’s discussion about why they need and want male people excluded. What have we seen recently, an unevidenced claim that the majority of women believe that male people are women if they say they are, that most of us on this thread don’t know or come across male people with a transgender identity with any regularity, claims that sex categorisation is complicated and ‘cis’ is not misunderstood and male people with DSDs are not included in the term ‘cis gender women’, that women on FWR are making blanket generalisations that all male people with transgender identities are fetishists rather than pointing out that some are and it is impossible to tell which ones are and which are not.

And the constant lazy claim that ‘both sides’ are extreme and are as bad as each other.

It is just a stream of tropish distractions of unevidenced arguments that are designed to demonise female people discussing why male people should be excluded from all female single sex provisions from around 8years old.

I do laugh that we keep getting told we don’t know or encounter male people with transgender identities.

I work with one, I encounter others regularly on the street or in stores. I have faced them when I have attended women’s events while they are yelling into loudspeakers about how women are murdering trans people, and a wide range of false accusations.

But apparently, we know nothing of these men.

Any statistic for that or a source?

Try reading the thread.

There is a young man that works at our local Tesco - he likes a bit of a mini skirt and a ponytail. You can tell he’s just a big dopey harmless bloke. He looks more scared of the world than you would be of him. So I wouldn't cross the road if I saw him, no, but someone like Isla Bryson? OTT, performative, in-your-face and unstable psycho eyes? Yes, I’d run a mile.

I think the fear women might have of men in public is more nuanced and instinctive than your op suggests.

Peak Mumsnet.

Might some posters be trying to stir up trouble? Should we cross the road?

Something further to consider on that derisory dismissal "I see the things GC women say here about trans women and how you treat them, or say youd treat them, if you ever actually interacted with one. Which most of you will not due to the low numbers."

"And let's face it, most GC meets get very little attendance."

This is just a few of the instances of Violence and intimidation against women speaking to the end of 2023

https://x.com/glinner/status/1980390649246675001?s=46

On my website, JL collected almost a decade's worth of trans activist violence to disprove the "bad behaviour on both sides" myth. I just asked ChatGPT to summarize it:

Documented pattern spanning nearly a decade of violent intimidation, physical assault, property damage, vandalism of memorials, stalking, hostage-taking, and sustained harassment campaigns specifically targeting women's rights advocates, lesbians, feminists, and anyone questioning gender ideology. Only one side doing this.

2014 onwards - "Kill All TERFs"
Widespread violent threats on social media documented by website "Terf is a Slur" - rape and death threats against women.

terfisaslur.com

September 2017 - Speakers Corner & Maria MacLachlan
We Need To Talk event forced to change venues after harassment. Trans activists followed attendees through Hyde Park. Meeting at University Women's Club had to be curtailed due to mob outside screaming and intimidating elderly members. MacLachlan assaulted on camera by Tara Flik Wood.

November 2017 - Social Justice Warrior at Book Fair
Woman surrounded for over an hour by 30 trans activists at anarchist bookfair, subjected to misogynistic abuse.

March 2018 - Spooking Millwall Football Club
We Need To Talk forced to cancel after relentless harassment of venue. Previous events in York and Glasgow also cancelled under pressure.

March 2018 - Violence on the Picket Line
Paula Lamont attacked on her own Bectu picket line by trans activists including Tara Flik Wood. Forced to leave for her safety.

April 2018 - The Siege in the Jam Jar
Trans activists forced their way into Bristol venue, physically blocked staircase, prevented attendees including Julie Bindel from entering. Heather Brunskell-Evans trapped in stairwell.

June 2018 - WPUK Besieged at Conway Hall
London Young Labour incited protest. Venue cancelled hours before event. Alternative venue surrounded by 100+ masked activists. Women assaulted, had projectiles and water thrown at them. One woman suffered panic attack running gauntlet of protesters.

January 2020 - Death Threats at Oxford University
Professor Selina Todd required security detail after speaking at WPUK event. Death threats credible enough for university protection.

June 2020 - Death Threats for Children's Author
JK Rowling subjected to rape and death threats after tweeting about biological sex. Continues after she published statement about concerns over gender ideology.

October 2020 - L'Amazone in Paris
Female-only space broken into by trans activists who changed locks, shut women out, vandalised artwork including memorial to murdered woman by drawing penis over it.

February 2021 - Spain's New Dictatorship
Trans activists hung effigy of First Vice President Carmen Calvo by neck from tree after she opposed self-ID laws.

March 2021 - Breaking Bones in Canada
Chris Elston assaulted approximately 20 times while campaigning. Attacked by masked thugs in Montreal who stole equipment, punched him, broke his arm.

July 2021 - Protest at Melbourne University
Trans activists organised protest calling for Dr Holly Lawford-Smith to be sacked. Women verbally abused, had water thrown at them, called c*nts. Trans-identified male shouted into woman's face with loudhailer.

August 2021 - Police Escort for Gay Man at Pride
Alexander Bramham assaulted at Manchester Pride, hat stolen, required police escort. Gay man ejected from Pride event for wearing LGB Alliance logo.

September 2021 - The Hounding of Kathleen Stock
Sussex University professor subjected to ongoing campaign of threats, harassment. Required cameras at home, bodyguards on campus. Anonymous 'Anti Terf Sussex' group posted guerrilla-style photos with smoking flares demanding she be fired. Eventually forced to resign.

September 2021 - Trying to Set Lesbians Alight
Trans-identified male attacked lesbians at Bordeaux Pride with lit flare.

October 2021 - Intimidation at FiLiA Conference
Large group of mostly male trans activists protested Portsmouth conference about ending male violence. Brandished placards with misogynistic slurs whilst women inside spoke about rape and domestic abuse.

November 2021 - Women Attacked in Brussels
Small group of women marching against male violence surrounded by 50 trans activists. Beaten, insulted, intimidated. One woman kicked in back.

April 2022 - Fantasising About Male Violence
Trans-identified male Gretchen Felker-Martin published "Manhunt" - novel featuring hunting and killing women described as "TERF soldiers" and "knights of JK Rowling". Features rape scenes and disturbing violence.

May 2022 - Bookshop Burning in Barcelona
Trans activists attacked bookshop hosting authors of "No One is Born in the Wrong Body", clashed with police, threatened to burn down shop. Authors forced to shelter inside with blinds drawn for 45 minutes.

March 2022 - Let Women Speak in Manchester #1
Large gang marched from St Peter's Square chanting "Terf scum off our streets". Disrupted WPUK meeting where speakers included Zimbabwean lesbian asylum seeker and CSA survivor discussing importance of female-only spaces.

June 2022 - Bristol Let Women Speak
Masked, hooded, predominantly male protesters screamed at women. Held signs reading "TERFs can suck my dick". Wrote "Colston - Terfs are next" on pavement (reference to torn-down statue of slave trader).

June 2022 - MP Escorted By Police at Pride
Jo Gideon, Conservative MP, subjected to non-stop abuse at Stoke Pride by 20 LGBT+ Society activists. Required police escort. Banner vandalised.

June 2022 - Let Women Speak in Barcelona
Feminists protesting male violence surrounded by trans activists screaming "Kill the TERF".

July 2022 - Destroyed Memorial to Murdered Babies
Trans activists vandalised street mural memorial to 14 babies killed by shaken baby syndrome. Collage created by grieving mothers whose babies were murdered by male partners. Vandals admitted destroying it because creators were "transphobic feminists".

August 2022 - Let Women Speak in Philadelphia
Trans activists with drums, noise makers, megaphones tried to drown out women. Crowded Kara Dansky, tried to grab mic, screamed "Shut the fuck up", gave continual thumbs down. Police unprepared.

August 2022 - Let Women Speak in Port Townsend
80-year-old Julie Jarman barred from pool after protesting male employee in women's changing room watching little girls undress. Women's press conference attacked by trans activists. Activists threw equipment, tore flags, damaged property, screamed in faces. Man with AR-15 over trans flag on cap present. Aggressive men shouting at Black woman and rape survivor.

September 2022 - The New Homophobia
Lesbian Strength march in Leeds disrupted by trans activists.

September 2022 - Attacking a Stonewall Veteran
Fred Sargeant, 74-year-old gay rights pioneer who was at original Stonewall riot and organised first Pride march (1970), assaulted at Burlington Pride. Pushed to ground, hit on head, jabbed with umbrella, had coffee poured on him. Required hospitalisation. Over $550 property stolen/damaged.

September 2022 - Let Women Speak in Brighton
Trans activists arrested for assault, obstructing police officer, and sexual assault by touching.

October 2022 - Portland Cancellation
Event cancelled after credible death threats by Antifa. Portland police unable to offer protection. Isabel Rosa Araujo (Antifa militant) publicly fundraised for pepper spray, collapsible baton, Bowie knife. Made open threats: "Smash On Sight", "Make TERFs afraid again". Few brave women who did gather were attacked.

October 2022 - Let Women Speak in Tacoma
Despite death threats, police refused presence. Man in short skirt rushed Lierre Keith at mic. April Hutchinson had fingers deliberately crushed and broken by male activist's bare hands. Trans activists advertised with image of boot stamping on women.

November 2022 - Mob at New York City Hall
Kellie-Jay Keen unable to reach podium due to aggressive demonstrators. Large crowd of trans activists and Antifa members required barricades. Demonstrators spat at women, chanted insults, used whistles/bells/drums/alarms, fought with NYPD, breached barricades, followed and threatened attendees.

Two topless trans-identified males grabbed and fondled own "breasts" whilst screaming at women. Amara Gisele Jones Velasquez screamed "I'm going to beat your ass", "These titties are way more real than you", "No man wants you", called 77-year-old LGBT activist "fucking faggot".

NYPD Strategic Response Group deployed. Unlawful assembly declared. Multiple arrests. Eli Erlich (accused of rape/sexual assault) bragged "We glitterbombed, pied, flipped off, screamed at, spit on, and cursed TERFs".

December 2022 - Shit-Throwing in Brussels
Céline Masson and Caroline Eliacheff (authors of "The Making of the Transgender Child") attacked at Brussels café. Twenty hooded men threw pots containing litter and excrement at attendees, tried to assault speakers, vandalised venue.

January 2023 - Storming McGill University
Professor Robert Wintemute (37 years defending LGB rights) prevented from giving talk at McGill. 100 trans activists stormed discussion. Attendees physically assaulted - shoved, pushed, blasted with bullhorns, one pushed to ground. Professor had flour thrown at him.

March 2023 - UCL Feminist Conference
Feminist conference featuring Joanna Cherry KC, Julie Bindel, Helen Joyce besieged. Sarah Jane Baker (30 years for kidnap/torture/attempted murder) yelled "c*nts" at women. Activists banged on windows, screamed. Kate Worley (DJ Lippy) assaulted - phone wrestled away and thrown, thumbs pulled back, bruised.

February 2023 - Storming Mexican Congress
Trans activists stormed Mexico City Congress protesting legislation to prevent child medicalisation. Smashed doors and windows, threw rocks, graffitied. Victoria Sámano forced way through, fought security guards.

March 2023 - Auckland Mob
Kellie-Jay Keen's New Zealand event besieged by "feral" mob before it started. Predominantly men, not in dresses. Shoved women, screamed in faces. Broke through barriers, descended on rotunda. Kellie-Jay doused with tomato juice, grabbed, jostled, stomped on. Mob tried to trip, punch her, grabbed clothing.

March 2023 - Assault in Vancouver
Chris Elston mobbed and surrounded by masked male activists in camouflage. One lunged at him twice, jabbed hand in his face. Another activist threw Elston's supporter to floor whilst police watched. Trans-identified male with long blond hair screamed "Fuck you!" repeatedly in Elston's face. Police did nothing.

April 2023 - Threats in Nantes
Symposium "Woman, Life, Freedom" supporting Afghan/Iranian women postponed after threats of "rotten eggs and baseball bats" from trans activists. Poster circulated with knife superimposed. Organiser faced "absolutely monstrous violence".

April 2023 - Riley Gaines Held Hostage
Riley Gaines speaking at San Francisco State University heckled throughout. After speech, mob burst in, turned off lights. Man in women's clothing hit her twice - shoulder then face. Cornered in hallway with no exit. Barricaded in office for three hours whilst mob hammered walls screaming "Open the door, we want Riley", "This is vengeance". Eventually required SFPD cordon and had to run to car as mob chased her. Left at 2am.

April 2023 - Gay Man Assaulted by Belfast Bar Staff
Man assaulted by staff at Robinson's bar Belfast after Standing For Women event.

July 2023 - Incitement to Violence at Trans Pride
Sarah Jane Baker told London Trans Pride crowd: "If you see a TERF, punch them in the fucking face". Cheered loudly. Recording shared by official London Trans Pride Instagram who defended it: "Sarah and many others hold a lot of rage and they have the right to express that anger".

July 2023 - Woman Seriously Assaulted in Aberdeen
Julie Marshall assaulted at Women Won't Wheesht event. Male activist struck her full in face with sign, glasses flew off, then punched her in arm. Suffered black eye and severe bruising. Esme Houston, trans-identified organiser of protest, celebrated male violence on social media.

August 2023 - 'Millions of Dead Terfs' in San Francisco
WDIUSA conference at Hilton Hotel besieged. Trans activists outside making sexually aggressive gestures, chanting obscenities. Hotel locked doors. One activist held sign "millions of dead terfs". Eight scaled fence trying to attack Meghan Murphy and K Yang on rooftop. They had to run. One attacker physically assaulted hotel general manager.

Nearby art exhibition "A Nasty Piece of Work: The Art of Dissident Feminists" featuring work by lesbian and Black African artists also targeted.

November 2023 - Portland Violence
WDI event at Multnomah County Library. Trans activists stalked organisers to AirBNB, slashed car tyres. Vandalised library - smashed glass doors, spray-painted graffiti. Library forced to close. Event moved outside. 30-50 masked male trans activists descended on 10 women. Threw cans, pepper-sprayed women directly in faces causing temporary blindness. Punched women, pushed them down, kicked them on ground. Four hospitalised. Equipment stolen, phones snatched/destroyed. Elderly uninvolved woman in 70s pushed down. Portland Police never responded to multiple 911 calls reporting active assaults.

Since then we have violence and intimidation at every women's rally in the UK alone. That doesn't include anything from the USA or Europe. Every Filia conference since this list was published has experienced intimidation, last years the venue was even vandalised.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czxwv9njvlgo

Any time a women's group wishes to meet to have a street rally, there is intimidation and too often violence. Then there has been the debates at Cambridge and Oxford where the speakers are being drowned out or attempts to get the debates cancelled.

The film 'Adult Human Female' screening at Edinburgh University had to be rescheduled two or three time because male people blocked women entering or intimidated them.

Just last month a women's rights group had their venue cancel at the last moment. This has become quite a common issue as venues either will not withstand the threats of extreme transgender activists or choose to discriminate against women's groups.

To any person wishing to accuse female people of 'violence' and being just as 'extreme' as male people, please start fucking linking up the evidence. I can probably find a link for every single incident mentioned here.

Please point to where feminists have intimidated trans people in the same way as the above while those trans people are just trying to meet or to legitimately protest. Otherwise, perhaps stop spreading harmful misinformation about how women are 'violent' towards male people with transgender identities.

And if they have any sense the people they fear in the street at night will be men, not GC women.

Apart from Brianna Ghey, only one of whose two killers was male, can someone name me a transwoman in the UK who has been killed by someone other than a man, either someone overtly male or someone identifying as female? I've been looking and can't find one, but surely such a case must exist!

Yes, absolutely agree the people they fear would be men.

@Helleofabore that makes scary reading. And you are absolutely right, we are yet to hear about mobs of women behaving in this way towards trans meetings or demos.

My instinctive reaction is to be very wary of any men who invades women’s boundaries.

You just need to look at how men who identify as trans report interactions with women to see that even from their own reports women are instinctively acting out of fear - by fawning.