Different instinctive reactions to men and trans women in public

[Waheymum]

It's occurred to me that I have crossed the road to avoid potentially dodgy men countless times in my life, but never a transwoman, even though I know that transwomen pose exactly the same threats as men do. I'll notice transwomen and recognise that they are trans, but I don't have the same socially-conditioned flight response.

Does anyone else experience this?

I’m generally relaxed around men, but I would go out of my way to avoid a trans identifying man, who by his behaviour demonstrates that he has ideas about sex and boundaries that make me wary of him.

The trans lobby has spent a lot of time trying to erase trans sexuals, as they (trans sexuals) do not agree with the trans gender ideology.
So its not usual for the older generation to just try and live their lives and fit in.
It is the younger trans gender ideologists that have caused the issues.

Much in the same way that mnay older gays and lesbians have issues with the younger "queer" groups. As a friend of mine says 'there is a split between the gays and the queers'

@RockingGrandma this study from Oxford University makes it clear that transwomen in the UK are more likely to commit murder than to be murdered. However, due to media bias, the public has been encouraged to think they are more vulnerable than they actually are.

Abstract
Transgender people are often portrayed as especially vulnerable to violence, but estimating victimization rates is difficult because reliable population denominators are lacking. This paper proposes an alternative approach, comparing the ratio of transgender homicide victims to perpetrators. It analyzes all homicides involving transgender people in Britain from 2000 to 2025. Victims were outnumbered by perpetrators, even excluding those who declared a transgender identity after imprisonment. Almost all cases involved natal males identifying as transwomen. The victim-perpetrator ratio among these individuals closely resembles that for males overall and differs markedly from that for females. BBC News published more than four times as many articles on transgender victims as on perpetrators, contributing to perceptions of exceptional vulnerability.

Transgender Homicides in Britain, 2000-2025: Victims and Perpetrators by Michael Biggs, Ace North :: SSRN

@RockingGrandma the Ministry of Justice figures from December 2024 show that 62% of transwomen in prison have convictions for rape or sexual assault, compared to 16% of men and 3% of women.

"Almost two thirds of transgender prisoners who identify as female are convicted sex offenders, new data has revealed.
Out of the 245 transwomen who are legally recognised as male, a total of 151, or 62 per cent, had committed at least one sexual offence.
Official figures showed that the number of prisoners who identify as transgender but do not have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) rose by almost 10 per cent to 295 in 2024."

Almost two thirds of trans women prisoners are sex offenders

Regarding assessing the risk of male people with transgender identities causing female people harm, perhaps considering the numbers that have been already posted here will help.

The point of reference as to their risk to female people is whether they commit sex crimes at the same rate or lower than the female population in the UK.

Below was a question answered in Parliament in 23 December 2024:

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.

Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.
Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024
Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.

Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure.

Just a note on this:

Regarding the % of male prisoners in UK with transgender identities. The mentioned above for the year ending 31 March 2024 had the figure that 151 of the 243 male prisoners in the UK prisons had at least one sex offence on their record.

The ratio changed from 43.3% (88/203) having at least one sex offence to their name at 31 March 2023 to 151/243 to 62.1% as at 31 March 2024.

The increase of the overall number of male prisoners with transgender identities in the UK prisons between 2023 and 2024 was only 42 yet the increase in the sex offenders was 63.
In 2019, there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders. I haven’t looked up the stats since. But I wouldn’t expect this will be different. Last time I looked at the raw stats for female sex offences, they had remained stable numbers for a decade or more despite population growth.

For male people with transgender identities to have the same rate of committing sex offences as female people, there would be 8 (3.3% of 243) prisoners with trans identities in the UK prison population with sex offences.

8

Not 151.

And if someone tries to suggest that the majority of these male prisoners have declared that they are women to gain access to the female prisons, I doubt this is true.

Considering the sex crime numbers for that prison population jumped from 88 to 151 male prisoners with a sex offence that declared they were women in a year (31 March 2024 to 31 March 2024) AFTER the publishing of the guidance in early February 2023, I seriously doubt these new prisoners are making declarations for the benefit of getting into the female prison

There is no evidence that male people at any stage of their transition are the same or less of a risk to female people as female people.

However, we also can show that any male person who has produced testosterone and has a body that can process that testosterone has male physical advantages that are not eliminated with testosterone suppression. Hence they are excluded from female sports categories at the Olympics.

Adding this:
Here is data from the MoJ
Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/populationoftransgenderoffend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html
Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.
The breakdown was
48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other
77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.
Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.
However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.
1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99.
Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.
There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time.
There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female.
What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.
As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population.
And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.
I will leave you to do your own sums. But... even using the figure of 88/203 is 43.3%. (And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.)
By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.
The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.
The breakdown was
40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other
The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.
And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.
This is why NO SUB GROUP OF MALE PEOPLE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM RISK ASSESSMENT. This group of male people still retain the same male pattern of committing sex and violent crime, at ANY STAGE OF TRANSITION.

Where do you live where you come across multiple men identifying as women? I can count on one hand the number I’ve come across in the street, I’ve seen a few in bars. I honestly can’t recall a time when I’ve crossed the road to avoid a dodgy looking man. Rapists come in all shapes and sizes - many are normal looking blokes who don’t look at all dodgy.

In regards to the ‘more likely to be victims’ I suggest you drill down into where those claims come from and then also consider it using female people in general as the compactor.

One of the sources of this claim comes from this paper linked below.

This is the quote below that keeps appearing:

”Transgender people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault”

It was from this press release.

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

I have a few issues with this press release. I think it has been used widely and extensively since it was released. I believe this document discusses those crime statistics

escholarship.org/content/qt7c3704zg/qt7c3704zg.pdf?t=qqfomk&v=lg

It refers to 369 trans people who identified their sex vs 435 061 people who were not trans identified in a study.

There were 420 in total.

The numbers of members of each cohort

not transgender - 435,061
transgender man (TIF) - 181
transgender woman (TIM) - 188
prefer not to say - 51

The sample size was not mentioned at all in the press release!!

Just being generous and using the full transgender population of this survey, that equals tel:420/435061 420/435061 =0.000965 x 100 = 0.09% is not a population that you could draw many confident conclusions from. And it would be ridiculous to make the comparison on such a small sample size.

Think about this from the point of view that women around the world admit they don’t bother to report their sexual assaults and rapes. Because they have no confidence that they will get justice AND not be vilified in the process.
What % of females actively reporting their attacks vs current trend of not bothering to report would decimate that 420 figure?

And that number cannot be accurately depicted in this point either;

”About half of all violent victimizations were not reported to police. Transgender people were as likely as cisgender people to report violence to police.”

Sure this 'maybe'. However, I believe the huge number of women telling us they don’t report.

This article is misrepresenting the reality.

Then there is this claim:

”Transgender people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault”

Including! Notice it says ‘including’!

Not ”Trans people are 4 times more likely to experience violent attacks including rape and sexual assault.”

What was NOT included was a handy breakdown of what constituted the crimes against trans people were. What was the bar for a hate crime being committed for instance? Misogyny? Does that fit the definition that holds for transphobic hate crimes?

“One in four transgender women who were victimized thought the incident was a hate crime compared to less than one in ten cisgender women.”

If females were taught how to accurately assess the motivation against them as to whether it constituted a hate crime, or indeed using the very same frames of reference as trans people do but based on sexism, and then they came back and reanswered that same survey, it suspect strongly that it will make that point meaningless? Is misogyny a ‘hate crime’ for instance?

Uses of this quote

-Statista have used this document.

https://www.statista.com/chart/27456/increased-likelihood-of-us-transgender-people-becoming-victims-of-a-crime/

And yet just a couple of examples of use in 2025 are:

-GenderGP has linked the press release that I posted on their site. From what I can find, the four times only refers to that Williams Institute press release.

Trans People at Four Times Greater Risk of Violence Than Cis People
https://www.gendergp.com/anti-trans-violence-on-the-rise/

" Trans people are more likely than cis people to be victims of a violent crime. Anti-LGBTQ+ hate crimes are also on the rise. This violence influences not only their mental and physical well-being but also when they decide to start gender-affirming healthcare.

Research indicates that trans people are at significantly greater risk of violence than their cis counterparts
A 2021 study published by the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law found that trans people are four times more likely to experience violence and abuse compared to cis people. Around one in every four trans women who were victims of a violent crime believed it to be due to their gender identity. In comparison, only one in every ten cis women believed it to be due to their gender. Half of all victims of violent crimes did not report it to the police. "

-Here is the Metro.

'A 2021 US-based Williams Institute study found that, in the year 2017-18, trans people are four times more likely than cis people to experience violence, including sexual assault and rape.'
https://archive.ph/Ceb9Z

Article by Ugla Stefanía Kristjönudóttir Jónsdóttir aka 'Owl' Fisher. A male who declares that he is a feminist.

-Politifact in the USA used this sound bite in the Sept 2025 article "Are trans people ‘statistically’ more prone to commit gun violence? Data shows a different picture
https://www.politifact.com/article/2025/sep/09/trans-people-mass-shootings-gun-violence/

They used in the section with the sub heading: Trans people are more likely to be victims, not perpetrators, of violence

If a claim such as ”Trans people are 4 times more likely to experience violent attacks including rape and sexual assault.” is going to be made by any institution or poster, it needs to be based on some very robust data.

Another source of that information @RockingGrandma is hate crime in self reported surveys in the UK.

The Guardian "Record rise in hate crimes against transgender people reported in England and Wales" Thu 5 Oct 2023

which includes this "Increase of 11% in year ending March 2023 may be due to comments in media and by politicians, says Home Office".

https://archive.ph/WtKLd

Which relates to this data (and a link was also posted - meaning two links to the very same data)

Hate crime, England and Wales, 2022 to 2023 second edition
Updated 2 November 2023

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023

This above is the source for the 11% increase

"sexual orientation hate crimes fell by 6%, to 24,102 offences, while transgender hate crimes increased by 11%, to 4,732 offences"

and

"Transgender identity hate crimes rose by 11% (from 4,262 to 4,732) over the same period, the highest number since the time series began in the year ending March 2012. Transgender issues have been heavily discussed by politicians, the media and on social media over the last year, which may have led to an increase in these offences, or more awareness in the police in the identification and recording of these crimes."

Notice it is very open to what those hate crimes might be. Just (as has been pointed out by others) Hate crime is defined as ‘any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards someone based on a personal characteristic.’

And also worth noting that the increase in raw numbers is 470.

Violence against the person is separated into a chart at figure 2.8.
Figure 2.8: Percentage of selected offences resulting in charge/summons, by hate crime strand, offences recorded in the year ending March 2023, England and Wales, 30 forces

The percentage there was rounded up to 2% (ie. less than 2%). This is compared to Race and Sexual orientation being 6% of the offences being for violence against the person. Religion was 5%. Disability was 1%.
This is the only attempt to break this data into violent crimes. Public order offences registered against transgender people was 3% and criminal damage and arson was also 3%.

This is good. Very little 'violence' was charged/summoned. This gets even clearer when you look at the definition for "violence against the person"

From this resource that explains this:
https://www.psni.police.uk/sites/default/files/2024-11/Police%20Recorded%20Crime%20User%20Guide.pdf

"Much of the violence against the person increase resulted from a widening of the offence coverage to include assaults with little or no physical injury and offences of harassment (again with no injury)."

However, lucky for us there is a very detailed listing of what is considered under this category on page 24 of that PDF. I think that it is very clear that 'Violence against the person' is not limited to physical violence at all.

-start-

VIOLENCE AGAINST THE PERSON

Violence against the person is grouped into five high-level categories – Homicide, Death or serious injury by
unlawful driving, Violence with injury, Violence without injury and Stalking and Harassment.
Homicide
1 Murder
4.1 Manslaughter
4.10 Corporate manslaughter
Where an organisation is deemed responsible for a person’s death. This offence differs from the basic
HOCR rule of recording based on the initial report to police and is only recorded once an inquest
concludes with a verdict of unlawful killing or the PPS authorise a charge (or direct that it is not in the
public interest to do so).
4.2 Infanticide
Applied to infants under 12 months killed by the mother while of disturbed mind.
Death or serious injury caused by unlawful driving
These offences differ from the basic HOCR rule of recording based on the initial report to police and are
only recorded once the investigation confirms the offence is made out, ie a person is charged or PPS
recommend prosecution.
4.4 Causing death or serious injury by dangerous driving
4.6 Causing death or serious injury by careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs
4.8 Causing death or serious injury by careless or inconsiderate driving
4.9 Causing death or serious injury by driving: unlicensed drivers etc
37.1 Causing death by aggravated vehicle taking
Violence with injury
2 Attempted murder
4.3 Intentional destruction of viable unborn child
4.7 Causing or allowing death of a child or vulnerable person
5D Assault with intent to cause serious harm
Includes offences of grievous bodily harm (GBH) with intent and wounding with intent. These offences
are recorded where there is clear evidence of a deliberate attempt to inflict serious bodily harm regardless
of level of injury sustained.
5E Endangering life
This classification is additionally split within PSNI to provide a data series for explosives offences and
firearms/ammunition offences.
8N Assault with injury
This classification is further split:
Grievous bodily harm or Wounding - where injury may result in permanent disability; more than minor
permanent disfigurement; broken bones; fractured skull; compound fractures; substantial loss of
blood; internal injury; lengthy treatment or serious psychiatric injury (based on expert evidence); and
shock (when accompanied by expert psychological evidence)
Assault occasioning actual bodily harm (AOABH) – injuries ranging from grazes, scratches and
reddening of the skin to simple broken nose or broken finger. Also includes non-visible injury causing
more than a passing moment of pain or discomfort which has an adverse impact on the victim.
Poisoning to aggrieve
Non-fatal strangulation - The Justice (Sexual Offences and Trafficking Victims) Act (Northern Ireland)
2022 created the offence of ‘Non-fatal strangulation’, recording commenced 26th June 2023.
8P Racially or religiously-aggravated assault with injury
The legislation behind these racially or religiously-aggravated offences does not exist within Northern
Ireland and therefore this classification does not apply. Records are instead classified to 8N Assault with
injury and are included in the racist and faith/religion hate crime strands.
8S Assault with injury on a constable
Where a police officer was the victim of GBH/wounding with intent, GBH, Wounding or AOABH in the
course of their duty.
8T Assault with injury on an emergency worker (other than a constable)
Within Northern Ireland these offences are classified to 8N Assault with injury (where the injury is minor)
and 105A Assault without injury (where no injury has been sustained).24Violence without injury
3A Conspiracy to murder
3B Threats to kill
Where an individual fears that the offender’s threat is real and may be carried out.
11A Cruelty to children/young persons
13 Child abduction
14 Procuring illegal abortion
36 Kidnapping
104 Assault without injury on a constable
Where, in the course of their duty, a police officer was the victim of an assault where no injury was
caused.
105A Assault without injury
Offences where, at the most, a feeling of touch or passing moment of pain is experienced by the victim.
Summary offences, closely associated with actual bodily harm (see classification 8N). Includes, amongst
other offences, common assault and aggravated assault. From 1 April 2003 only includes assaults
involving no injury, please note that this change was introduced a year earlier in England and Wales on
1 April 2002.
105B Racially or religiously-aggravated assault without injury
The legislation behind these racially or religiously-aggravated offences does not exist within Northern
Ireland and therefore this classification does not apply. Records are instead classified to 105A Assault
without injury and are included in the racist and faith/religion hate crime strands.
106 Modern slavery
Includes offences such as holding a person in slavery or servitude, requiring a person to perform forced
or compulsory labour and arranging/facilitating travel of another person with a view to exploitation.
Stalking and harassment
8L Harassment
Harassment offences are those incidents where no other substantive notifiable offence exists, but when
looked at as a course of conduct are likely to cause fear, alarm or distress. Within Northern Ireland this
classification is further split into harassment and intimidation offences.
8M Racially or religiously-aggravated harassment
The legislation behind these racially or religiously-aggravated offences does not exist within Northern
Ireland and therefore this classification does not apply. Records are instead classified to 105A Assault
without injury and are included in the racist and faith/religion hate crime strands.
8Q Stalking
Stalking legislation was introduced in Northern Ireland on 27th April 2022, through the Protection from
Stalking Act (Northern Ireland) 2022. Offences of “stalking” and of “threatening and abusive behaviour”
are recorded from this date.
8R Malicious communications
The recording of malicious communications offences started for the first time in Northern Ireland from 1st April 2017. This classification also includes offences relating to 'revenge porn'; new legislation on
disclosing private sexual photographs and film with intent to cause distress was introduced in June 2016.
8U Controlling or coercive behaviour
The Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (NI) 2021 introduced the “domestic abuse offence” within
Northern Ireland on 21st February 2022, enabling the recording of abusive behaviour occurring on two or
more occasions against an intimate partner, former partner or close family member, ie within the definition
of domestic abuse used in Northern Ireland and where abusive behaviour includes controlling or coercive
behaviour, psychological abuse, emotional abuse, financial abuse and economic abuse.

-end-

The following is a link to the ONS that lists the above for all of UK but without the extra detail:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/methodologies/userguidetocrimestatisticsforenglandandwales#appendix-1-recorded-crime-list

So, as suspected, a male person can report his spouse or ex- spouse for domestic abuse (ie. not accepting that transition, and using the correct sex pronouns) and this would also be coded as a 'hate crime - violence against the person.'

Tweets that someone doesn't like about themselves fall under malicious communication and can be recorded as a 'hate crime- violence against the person'.

It always pays to look in the data that is being posted to check exactly what it says and doesn't say.

If someone says directly or implies or infers anything about 'violent' hate crimes, always check the source, and drill down to any data given.

Can’t say I’ve come across many men in women’s clothing, but one I came across in a supermarket caused me to feel uneasy as he was wearing a grubby short tennis skirt and was significantly taller than me.

Last week I came across a young man in the street wearing a shortish denim shirt and a facial expression that made me feel uneasy, due to its arrogance, as if he was just waiting for someone to challenge him.

In both cases, I quickly looked away and walked past. I would probably do the same for any dodgy looking man, however the clothe make them stand out, just as any other man in sexual garb in public would stand out.

With regards to hates crimes its worth remembering that there was a time when we had non-hate crime hate crimes (non-crime hate incident (NCHI)) being reported which was people being reported for legal speech.

It is also difficult to believe hate crime numbers againist trans people when telling the truth is being reported as hate

How do you know what they are thinking? Do you know what women are thinking as we are out in public? Or is it only trans women where you're able to use your telepathy?

As a cohort TW already flout social conventions, which can be a red flag, and this new lot have (again as a cohort) made it plain that they entitled and arrogant. So yes, I'd avoid entitled & arrogant men especially if they are behaving outside social norms. I learnt that over 60 years ago and not changing now.

I see one TW relatively often around the shops, on the bus etc & I do avoid him because he likes to engage in conversation and I don't. He's a sad character and does have at least one criminal conviction that I know of & drinks to excess. All reasons for avoidance but how much is trans and how much man and how much just a general nuisance? Hard to say as they're interwoven.

Most of the people I avoid are probably mentally unwell and behaving as such. They arent just standing there being them.

Actually, men are more likely to be victims of violence than women. However, the perpetrators of that violence is overwhelmingly other men. As someone has already posted, within the prison estate, trans identifying men are proportionally over represented as perpetrators of violent crimes against women.

I dont think prison stats are good to generalise to outside statistics.

For example, I'm pretty sure that prison stats will show that the mothers who kill children are overwhelmingly white. I'm not sure wee should use that statistic to judge white women outside of jail.

Can't wait for summer to be over.

OP, no.

HTH

You could always look at the signs at pride/trans rallies, websites and social media of the trans lobby and see how friendly they are to those that don't agree 100% with them.

Or even the usual suspects on many of the trans threads on MN to see who threatens who most.

I dont think trans people are less unfriendly than those who are against trans people. Most of us fit somewhere in the middle.

Fundamentalists of all kind take their views to extreme. Of course there are fundies on both sides of this.

If anything, I'd be more likely to keep my distance from males who identify as women, as I know they're not mentally well, and mentally unwell men are usually more likely to behave erratically or aggressively, especially towards women.

I live in a city. I work across from the main station. I see transwomen on a regular basis. Daily if you count the two that work in my building but I see others around the station on at least a weekly basis.

You don’t see many women threatening to rape and murder TRAs do you?

Actually I have seen people of both sexes who are against trans people say awful things about them. I see trans people see awful things about people who don't think they are the gender they say they are.

Seems pretty much like people from the same sewer, to me, just using different words.

I'd be much more wary of an unknown man who appeared to be trying to disguise himself as a woman than of a random bloke.

Nah, you don’t see the average gender critical woman threaten actual harm to transpeople. Just doesn’t happen to any great extent, whereas you bc t have to look hard to find transwomen (and it is usually transwomen, not transmen) threatening violent acts against gender critical women.