Gender dysphoria is for life

[Seethlaw]

Gender dysphoria is a life-long condition, with or without transitioning.

Even after transition and in no particular order:

• Gender dysphoria is the unrelenting knowledge that under it all, despita everything you've done, your body is still and always will be the wrong sex.
• Gender dysphoria is scars on your body.
• Gender dysphoria is feeling guilty because you make your loved ones' life more complicated.
• Gender dysphoria is having to choose which pre-transition memories you can share and/or having to carefully rewrite them in the opposite sex.
• Gender dysphoria is having to choose between telling your new healthcare provider about your transition and your hormonal treatment, or risking them giving you inappropriate care.
• Gender dysphoria is a lifetime of medication and specialist appointments.
• Gender dysphoria is never being sure whether people truly support you or only humour you.
• Gender dysphoria is being clocked every once in a while and wondering how many people figured you out and you didn't notice.
• Gender dysphoria is wondering how and when you're going to explain to that new person you like that you weren't born the sex you present - and being anxious about how they are going to react.
• Gender dysphoria is never having the sex you really wish you had because even the best fake plumbing is nothing like the real one.
• Ironically, gender dysphoria can even be wishing you could dress or present in a more genderfluid manner, but anything that takes you closer to your birth sex presentation makes you feel worse, no matter how great you think it looks on other people of your desired sex.

And so forth and so on.

The idea that transition ends gender dysphoria is a harmful myth. Gender dysphoria is something that all trans people must learn to live with, whether they transition or not, and no matter at what age they transition. There's no avoiding it; there's no ending it. There's only managing it, carving a happy life for yourself around the good bits, and learning to handle the bad parts in a productive way.

I wish more trans people faced that reality, instead of insisting on living in a fantasy where going through the perfect transition and forcing people into behaving in the perfect manner would mean never having to suffer gender dysphoria ever again.

What you are describing is the mental suffering that goes with trying to resolve gender dysphoria (feeling your body is the wrong sex) by trying to appear the opposite sex. It fundamentally doesn't resolve the original issue and introduces all the problems listed.

It makes much more sense to treat the mental distress in the same way as any other distress due to reality not being what you want it to be. That way you can end up with acceptance of reality, no need to second guess what everyone else is thinking or wondering when to fess up.

Out of interest, Seethlaw, have you actually had any gender affirming care?

I've had top surgery, and testosterone for 15 years. The psychiatric part was not specifically gender-affirming, more like me-affirming, in my various dimensions.

no one thinks transition is a total cure to gender dysphoria and certainly not a quick one

I guess we haven't met the same people then, because I've certainly met people like that.

As for the list: it's obviously built from my own experience, yes. Though to be clear: I don't feel much of all this anymore. The social anxiety, for example, is gone now.

One thing that will never go, however, is the sex dysmorphia. Unless someone finds a way to redraw my mental map, I will never stop wishing for male sex characteristics I can never have. Not that it's painful, merely annoying.

I may have misinterpreted what Seethlaw meant but he mentioned a conflict between revealing his trans status to a HCP or else risk being given inappropriate care for his body - If there were no concerns that outing yourself as trans would create a risk that you would be treated poorly, then there wouldn't be a conflict here, and obviously a concern that you will be treated poorly for being trans is a concern about transphobia. I would say actually perhaps many of the worries he lists about concerns about being "clocked" or what others are thinking of you are actually concerns about transphobia rather than direct effects of gender dysphoria. My gender dysphoria is, for me at least, all about how I experience my body, it's not really about how others perceive me. Even if I never ever passed I'd still be happier with my body this way. Admittedly my life does tend to go more smoothly if I'm not being clocked but again that's because of the way society treats and views trans people, not an inherent consequence of gender dysphoria.

I didn’t read it that at all. The context Seethlaw gives show concerns about being clocked or having to out yourself aren’t from fear of transphobia, but discomfort with being continually faced with the reality that you aren’t your preferred gender, you are trans.

So if you don't feel much of it anymore, how does this square with your claim that these feelings are lifelong, when clearly you have yourself experienced some significant improvement?

I guess we haven't met the same people then, because I've certainly met people like that

Well clearly and I don't disbelieve you, if you look hard enough you can find some people who believe anything. But I have been active in trans spaces for - well since I was 18 or so and I'm 46 now, and I really really don't feel the view you suggest is a common one, or one that would survive a lot of contact/communication with real life trans people. And certainly literally every single healthcare provider I ever spoke to was very clear transition isn't a magic problem solver and indeed creates some new problems of it's own. The point for me at least is it makes life livable and worth living, not that I suddenly don't have any problems any more or that my body is perfect - it is far from it but it is a place I'm much happier to live in now. Actually even if I had a magic wand I don't feel much compelled to change anything else at this point. So I really do refute the idea that you're condemned to life long dissatisfaction. Not that I'm doubting your experience or that there will be others who feel the same but again I don't think it's inevitable or universal. And perhaps you weren't actually trying to claim it was, but of course many commenters will take your words as evidence as such because it confirms what they want to believe about trans people.

I think there could well be something to those suggestions about your mother's longing or desire for a boy, and I suspect that many young children who experience dysphoria are picking up on this. Children do live in the shadow of their parents's psyche.

Did you ever watch the Channel 4 documentary 'La Petite Fille'? It featured a french boy who was being transitioned and presented as a girl, largely by his mother, I might add. In the documentary she was very overt and open about how desperately she had wanted a girl when she was pregnant with him; though I'm not sure she was even conscious of this obvious transference onto her child.

Actually it was a BBC Storyville documentary...not a channel 4 one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Girl_(film)

Seethlaw may feel different but I personally don't have a great deal of discomfort about being reminded I'm trans; I am trans and at this point it's just a fact about my body no more notable than my hair colour or height, it's not something I think about all the time but equally not a source of any distress. If I am concerned about being clocked, it's because I'm concerned about how I'll be treated. Obviously experiences will vary but being trans certainly doesn't make it inevitable you're going to be constantly distressed in this way. Many trans people are very comfortable with their bodies and their identities.

The toys thing is ridiculous.

Once again I find myself immensely glad that I grew up in environment that was simultaneously very progressive in the 70s sense and very old fashioned in the making your own entertainment sense. The idea that toys should be 'gendered' was anathema to both sides. I ended up playing mostly with a big mixed box of springs, magnets, and gyroscopes; and the odd hand-me-down yo-yo or bat and ball. Suitability for girls was never a factor, being free or educational was.

On the rare occasion I did get a present of a "girl's toy" I would have met that diagnostic criterion. Dolls were dull apart from taking them apart to see how the joints worked. Tea sets offered useful containers for chemistry experiments. A princess dressing up outfit was made of handy netting that could be used to catch sticklebacks and tadpoles. But any gender diagnosis would have been way off the mark - I wasn't rejecting being a girl or wanting to be a boy (and had no more thoughts of that than of changing how many toes I had or where my ears were attached). I just didn't really do imaginary play; I wanted to know how the world worked, not pretend it was other than it was.

The idea that your interests somehow 'prove' either your gender or your sex makes no sense to me at all. I find it horrifying that children have been taught that it does.

@Seethlaw

A million million thanks for your honesty. You are a great credit to the trans community and although many in that community won't think so, a huge asset in achieving what trans people need.

Re “the toys” (or clothes, or hairstyles - take your pick) things, this is from a developmental psychologist who claims to have spoken to Dr Cass before the Cass report came out.

She mentions that children go through a developmental stage that includes thinking that putting on a dress turns a boy into a girl (and that Cass did not seem to understand this…):

https://nitter.net/wontsomeonethi2/status/2069800467811459454

Before the Cass Review was published, I had the opportunity to talk to Dr Cass about my research. I outlined how young children think that putting on a dress turns a boy into a girl and the relevance of this to younger children who think they have changed sex.

I have not mentioned this before publicly but I feel it is time to do so. She listened to what I had to say and appeared to understand the implications for younger children who identify as transgender (I'm using "identify as" as a placeholder here because the concept of internal identity in younger children is very problematic). Dr Cass said "oh, that's interesting, I thought those cases were "safe", where they say they are trans very young" [I paraphrase but she definitely used the word "safe"]
She knows there's no magic internal feeling in young children who think they are the opposite sex. I've told her and she's heard it and acknowledged it might not be right to go ahead with social or medical transition in these cases. SHE KNOWS. I have no idea why she's doubling down on this. No idea.

I can’t no, but I get why you’d want me to be angry.
Ultimately there are transwomen who are incredibly vulnerable and being fed they’re women. They feel entitled to women’s spaces because that delusion has been enabled and will be forever I suspect. They are going to have to accept that a 3rd space is required and that unfortunately for them, women don’t all welcome them in their spaces.
I’m angry at lots of things, but this I just feel sadness over. Lots of transwomen have had hatred towards their bodies and just want to belong. Now I accept that it is not the responsibility of women make them feel better about themselves but I can also feel sad for them that they believe access to a woman’s toilet or changing area will change that for them. I can’t be angry and someone in the depths of self hatred just trying to find ways to make themselves happy. I can be angry that their selfishness is making women uncomfortable in women’s spaces but I can’t bring myself to be cross at someone desperate to feel included. I just find it sad.
I have an uncle with psychosis, I’ve mentioned him on this board before. He truly believes he was best friends with the Beatles and went on tour with them. Believes he met elvis. Elvis may have been dead before he was born. He’s not violent or agressive but when he’s told he didn’t do those things, it absolutely destroys him. He can’t fathom why people would think he’s lying. To him, he was practically the fifth member of the Beatles. He knows he found elvis to be an absolute prick and it’s all so real.
I often wonder if being trans is similar and I just can’t get mad at that. X

Great thread @Seethlaw

This comment makes a lot of sense to me, as a mum of a child who expressed gender dysphoria in the past. I think it's still there now but is slowly resolving. Thankfully, it's not dominating our conversations and when it does come up, it's very clear that she knows the difference between sex and gender identity and that, sadly, many children don't. She's fully aware that there is a female child at school who seems to be on a pathway towards testosterone that is unstoppable - and that this child is vulnerable and likely confused.

It's interesting when you describe children as "not really trans". I think that's the phrase you used in other posts.

As a PP has said, this points to the notion of true trans. As a non-believer in gender identity, I don't think true trans exists. However, I do think that there are some people for whom no alternative relief exists other than transition. But, as you point out, it's not a walk in the park and it won't make the feelings go away.

My concern is that for such people, what was missing in their journey of self understanding was a deep enough exploration of the underlying issues. In what must be deeply personal (so please know I'm not asking for any more detail), you alluded to this in your own journey by mentioning the impact of your younger years and how you effectively stepped in to fulfil a "masculine" gap. I hope it's not rude of me to observe that the alignment of your mum's subconscious needs and your inner sense of tomboy-ness seems significant here, potentially to the point where true trans became deeply embedded. We do have very deep-rooted societal expectations and pressures about what masculine and feminine means, so I can't imagine how it must feel to be in the wrong "role".... but I still can't help my own firm conviction that there is no true trans. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'm also an atheist and perhaps I'm wrong that god doesn't exist. Regardless, there will always be people that believe in gender identity and people that believe in god so my lack of belief is irrelevant to them.

Did you hear Buck Angel address the Cambridge uni debate a couple of months ago? That was a great speech and touched on Buck's sense of true trans self versus how society accommodates people who have this viewpoint. Scott Newgent also talks about this kind of thing. Buck has previously been vocal (and IMO homophobic) about how gay men should accept Buck's beaver but that aside, what I generally hear from Buck, Scott and you is that nobody should be forced to accept another person's gender identity as their own reality.

Well, you know, that's actually reassuring if you can assure me that my experience with trans people having unrealistic expectations is not universal! Not that I would assume it was, obviously, but it's really good to hear it's definitely not, if you know what I mean.

not that I suddenly don't have any problems any more or that my body is perfect - it is far from it but it is a place I'm much happier to live in now. Actually even if I had a magic wand I don't feel much compelled to change anything else at this point.

Really? I definitely would. I mean, I'm pretty happy with my body as it is, but if I could have the male version of it, I'd jump on the opportunity with both feet.

And perhaps you weren't actually trying to claim it was, but of course many commenters will take your words as evidence as such because it confirms what they want to believe about trans people.

Er, it's not like there aren't plenty of TRAs who come here complaining about transphobia everywhere, and literal genocide, and how "trans kids" will kill themselves if they are not transitioned, and so forth and so on. I don't think people here need my experience to realise that trans people are not all quite sane.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I've never experienced transphobia in a medical setting, quite the contrary. It's just that it's one setting where, if they don't notice you're trans, you would be taking quite the risk not to tell them. And if they do notice you're trans, then you have to have the little dance around it at the beginning of the discussion. I got used to it but at first it was quite awkward 😅

No, I haven't watched it, mainly for the sake of my blood pressure 😡But I've heard of it, yes.

Thank you very much 😊!

Thing is, I know there must be plenty others like me out there. If we could just find each other somehow...

Your explanations of dysphoria one this board have been very illuminating.

We probably all live with a measure of various dissatisfactions about our bodies. I hope, again, that you are able to find peace with yours.

I also can't help but say that I find it profoundly sad that people are so distressed by their healthy bodies. Thats my own sadness to handle, though. 😊

There were a few trans people who were what is now called 'gender critical'. Not heard much about them for a while. Fionne Orlander and Miranda Yardley were two.

I find this healthy bodies framing so unhelpful. The mind is part of the body and it certainly wasn’t health before transition, and there was no way for me to enjoy my ‘healthy’ body or incentive to look after it before.

I have come back from a day out and caught up on this thread which has been on my mind all day.

In my search for trying to gain an understanding of trans ideation in women and young women, i found most writings and research was about men by men.

Hakeem, Bailey and Blanchard for e.g - all very useful but really brushes over females with the ROGD formula.

I am totally a lay person in this field.

But what i want to say is that we do not need to know why gays and lesbians exist because the only problems they encounter are societal prejudice , be it family or their wider communities.

if those illogical prejudices did not exit this section of our society would have no problem just being who they are.

That cannot be asserted for the so called “trans community”

Set aside transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens, (where fetichism resides), (Blanchard, Bailey Hakeem et al.)

Transsexualism is a whole other problem, which even body modifications does not resolve the personal psychological struggles but may just alleviate the most severe symptoms of distress.

So where does female transsexualism come from, is not clear from what i have read.

For me i have always had freinds who are lesbians, and was fascinated by some of the debates and identifications, such as butch, femme, lipstick lesbian etc. as they all tried to model around existing culture.

And then in comes gentleman jack, AKA Ann Lister.

A bloody exciting account of a woman who inherited wealth and therefore power, who was a lesbian. Who took on a more “male” style of dress to assert said power, and acquired education and knowledge to make it stick.

I do not think there is a hetro sexual woman, who saw that program who did not love her story.

I always return to the thought that gendered “role models” of ditsy sexualised women are the cause of female gender dysphoria, and “butch” “bossy” “assertive” hetrosexual and lesbian women, rejected by family and society as not behaving as we should, can end up with anger at there bodies.

And how women ought to look and be has gotten worse not better despite our legal rights.

Women internalise feelings about personal violations, and violence ends up towards themselves in all sorts of ways that much i know for sure.

Evil would be the right word.

I have a friend who is a published child psychologist working on local authority contracts with children on behalf of Social Services.

She says that if a girl teenager says she is a lion or an eagle she will explore with them why they might want to identify as an apex predator in a world where men generally hold power. But the moment that teenager says she is a boy, all discussion about why they might want to be male had to stop.

The trans lobby are actively preventing people from accessing mental health care, it's genuine evil.

Interesting post!

I agree with the non-parallelism between being gay and being trans. Being gay is not intrinsically distressing and it's purely personal (as in, it doesn't require that society do anything - quite the contrary). Being trans is inherently based on an internal distress, and most often, a certain amount of societal participation is at the very least hoped for. Two entirely different matters.

Other than that, I don't really have much to say, because I don't have any insight into ROGD.

Ugh! This is so wrong 😡

It breaks my heart that not only are so many kids and young people not getting the help they need, but far too many of them are downright encouraged to step onto a path that will damage their body for life! A whole generation is being failed because of a mostly baseless ideology 😢

Thanks for the response @Seethlaw Rapid onset gender dysphoria, seems to only cover a new young female cohort.

There is not much at all on women who are older than this group.

Also wanted to add in Dr P (Dionne Joseph)who appeared on inciteful sisters podbean.

She has an interesting take on gender dysphoria (a term she refutes as having any validity).

In short she feels that this psychological problem can be better associated with OCD, and that an individual becomes fixated on the notion of being in the wrong body.