Gender dysphoria is for life

[Seethlaw]

Gender dysphoria is a life-long condition, with or without transitioning.

Even after transition and in no particular order:

• Gender dysphoria is the unrelenting knowledge that under it all, despita everything you've done, your body is still and always will be the wrong sex.
• Gender dysphoria is scars on your body.
• Gender dysphoria is feeling guilty because you make your loved ones' life more complicated.
• Gender dysphoria is having to choose which pre-transition memories you can share and/or having to carefully rewrite them in the opposite sex.
• Gender dysphoria is having to choose between telling your new healthcare provider about your transition and your hormonal treatment, or risking them giving you inappropriate care.
• Gender dysphoria is a lifetime of medication and specialist appointments.
• Gender dysphoria is never being sure whether people truly support you or only humour you.
• Gender dysphoria is being clocked every once in a while and wondering how many people figured you out and you didn't notice.
• Gender dysphoria is wondering how and when you're going to explain to that new person you like that you weren't born the sex you present - and being anxious about how they are going to react.
• Gender dysphoria is never having the sex you really wish you had because even the best fake plumbing is nothing like the real one.
• Ironically, gender dysphoria can even be wishing you could dress or present in a more genderfluid manner, but anything that takes you closer to your birth sex presentation makes you feel worse, no matter how great you think it looks on other people of your desired sex.

And so forth and so on.

The idea that transition ends gender dysphoria is a harmful myth. Gender dysphoria is something that all trans people must learn to live with, whether they transition or not, and no matter at what age they transition. There's no avoiding it; there's no ending it. There's only managing it, carving a happy life for yourself around the good bits, and learning to handle the bad parts in a productive way.

I wish more trans people faced that reality, instead of insisting on living in a fantasy where going through the perfect transition and forcing people into behaving in the perfect manner would mean never having to suffer gender dysphoria ever again.

I know exactly what you mean 😁! I lived for a few years in yet another country, where the language is neither French nor English. Well, I never managed to learn it, because everyone was just so nice and helpful and willing to use mangled English with me, that I never got my lazy arse into proper learning gear. Oops.

I totally agree with everything you say.

I chose a terrible title for my thread, because I was in a specific mindset and completely failed to see how both the title and the OP could be read very differently from what I meant.

What you list in your bullet points are all consequences of living a lie. Not gender dysphoria.

Ah. I was using a more... lyrical meaning of "is". Basically, I meant, "This thing triggers gender dysphoria". And listing things that will still trigger gender dysphoria even after you've transitioned, because transitioning is not a cure for gender dysphoria.

If you speak to old school transexuals they will tell you that they had to go through years of therapy to treat their underlying MH issues

Yeah. I met with the tail end of their cohort back in the day. And I too was in therapy while I transitioned, and the help was immeasurable. I do think that everyone who wishes to transition should have at least a few months of serious therapy where all the hard questions need to be asked and properly answered.

I do not intend to minimise the real suffering you described Seethlaw. But the point above did make me think that gender dysphoria is a fair description of my #sadtimes feelings when I'm excluded or feel like I'm not sufficiently Manny.

I feel sad because of social/gender expectations related to my sex. It's also impossible to unpick how much of that is due to my autistic misfitting and how much due to not living up to gender expectations.

I can relate and empathise with those who struggle with gender and neurospice, which are so often co-presenting. I hesitate to overstate it or claim to know how others feel or claim things that are not mine.

As I said I'm really glad not to have any significant body dismorphia, that just sounds horrible, and I'm super sympathetic to people struggling with that.

• Gender dysphoria is never being sure whether people truly support you or only humour you.

This really struck me. First, because what's the difference? People have their own internal thoughts and feelings and perceptions about other people, perceptions that might be right or wrong. And we usually smooth them out a bit when we deal with other people. So what does it mean to "truly support" someone, and how is that different from "humouring" them? I might go along with your self perception just because I respect and care about you even if I have a different perception. Or I might decide it's more respectful and a sign of caring about you to be honest with you.

And second, I wonder if it's the other way round. Mostly we do let other people get on with it, we keep our internality, they can have their internal view of us and it's not a big deal if it's not an exact match with our own. We accept that social smoothing over. But social anxiety can include an underlying troubling feeling of "I don't know if other people really support me or if they just humour me and really they look down me". So I wonder if the dysphoria is just one application of a more general sense of social worry to gender.

I dunno though. Just speculation really.

I've spent ages trying to respond to Seethlaw's [very validating, thank you] comment that it would be interesting to know how I came through extreme 'gender dysphoria' in my childhood- but I've given up, it ends up being huuuugggge because I'm bad at being succinct, and also it's a big topic.

I'm tired now. I want my lunch.

And I'm looking at how much Seethlaw has written, taking questions and compliments and challenges and corrections and suggestions and god knows what, with the patience of a saint, always in good humour and politely, and I'm full of admiration for your stamina as well as your attitude, Seethlaw!

I'm also concerned for you, and think you should go and have a rest and a casse-croute🍞🧀🍎🍪

Don't worry, we'll all be here with our questions and compliments and challenges and corrections and suggestions when you get back!

While I agree they're both mental illnesses, they're two distinct and different conditions.

I find gender dysphoria incredibly sad for those who have it. I have a few trans friends and over the years have worked (as a care worker so only as someone giving personal care and support, not medically in anyway, trans women) and I have also worked with men who have cross dressed for kicks. I believe there is a difference. The difference for me is a TW losing her ability to wash her hair and being grateful I washed and styled it, taking into account she just wanted to feel pretty. A CD wanted to shock and humiliate me by showing me his collection of soiled lingerie and almost demanding I hand washed the blood, faeces and semen out of it. (I was 15 and did as I was told, I was given grubby marigold to wear whilst I did it. I found out years later he died of a sexually transmitted disease so I really should have been provided with proper gloves at a minimum)

I recently discovered a dr named John Ronald brown (I’m sure it was but I may be wrong!) who was illegally performing surgeries on the trans community, leaving terrible and dangerous defects on his patients. I think there has always been people out there willing to risk their lives to do all the can to become the person they’re convinced they should have been born.
What is sad though, when I discovered the case of this doctor that Google threw out a few suggestions of illegal surgery on trans patients.

I don’t believe that someone is born in the wrong body, I do believe people are utterly convinced they are. Same way I don’t believe in ghosts, yet I know people are absolutely sure they’re speaking to their dead ancestors.

I can be angry with men for trying to access women’s spaces and sports, especially men who know full bloody well that what they are doing is predatory. But I can’t get mad at TW wanting that, even if I’m not agreeing they should have that access. I just feel sad they are unhappy.

I know lots of transwomen wanting access to women’s spaces just want to live without drama. I feel terrible for them, but I disagree with giving them that access if one biological woman feels uncomfortable. Even one.

This board has taught me it’s ok to feel sad for trans people and give them respect and love, but also say, I think women should be put first. They have fought so hard, let’s not set them back.

@Seethlaw I have not encountered your posts before this so I don’t know much about you. Whatever your journey is, I wish you all the happiness on it. Life is easy for so few of us, if any, that additional problems outside regular ones we face can really mess up our lives. I hope you’re doing okay 💐

the point above did make me think that gender dysphoria is a fair description of my #sadtimes feelings when I'm excluded or feel like I'm not sufficiently Manny.

I think that makes sense to me? I mean, my point was that gender dysphoria, if left untreated with proper psychiatric help, is going to be triggered by a lot of different things. Some of those things are going to be related to feeling excluded, or to failing to "perform the opposite sex" sufficiently well, whatever that means for each individual person. So it makes sense to me that you would recognise some of my signs in your experience? The source of those signs would not necessarily be exactly the same for you and me (autism for you, my weird mental map for me, troubles with social gender expectations for both), but we would feel some of the same unhappiness because of it anyway.

And now I wonder what label people would try to stick on you, to explain away your sadtimes feelings as an identity...

Where are your scientific details for the source of this drivel?

Thank you for this,

I agree with you.

I also think that your title is OK. and requires no adjustment.

Lived experience as a transman.
Isn't that the most important type of evidence that trumps all science according to trans activists

What is your argument against Seethlaw's points or are you going to just use a standard TRA response?

That's interesting speculation!

So I wonder if the dysphoria is just one application of a more general sense of social worry to gender.

You know, the more I discuss "gender dysphoria", the more it becomes obvious to me that it means nothing because it means everything. It's related to sex dysmorphia, but also to personal preferences, but also to gender-related social anxiety... It's not A thing, it's a constellation of unrelated points. No wonder it's so much more diagnosed than it used to be!

So what does it mean to "truly support" someone, and how is that different from "humouring" them?

I guess it's the difference between telling someone, "I believe you can do this!" and telling them, "Yeah, sure, you can do it, aha" ? One is affirmative, the other is just not negative, I guess? And as you know, affirmation is a huge deal in trans circles, so much so that any non-affirmative reaction can be seen as a negative one.

So it's easy to end up with gender-related social anxiety when you're repeatedly told that anyone who doesn't actively affirm you, is in fact attacking you. And from there, you end up second-guessing every interaction you've had, which only feeds the anxiety some more.

Merci, Marie 💛!

I've had the casse-croûte, and now I'm waiting to see how much longer my brain will let me go before shouting, "No more! I beg you! No more!" 😅

Oh Mash you're priceless!
Compare and contrast the careful, polite, thoughtful way Seethlaw and us have been interacting - not always agreeing with each other, sometimes challenging, sometimes downright disagreement.

And then, in blunders Masha with 'this drivel'!🙄

But we are the hate-fuelled transphobic bigots, right?😏

I see what you mean.

And as you know, affirmation is a huge deal in trans circles, so much so that any non-affirmative reaction can be seen as a negative one.

Yes, that need for affirmation does sound similar to anxiety and needing more and more external reassurance. The more they get the more they need.

It's a bit like something Az Hakeem commented on, that people with "low theory of mind" may cope better with transition because they just assume that if someone uses the pronouns or doesn't say anything rude then all's well. People with more "theory of mind" do more of the second guessing and worrying what other people really think.

That experience with the cross-dresser must have been quite scary! Both when it happened, and afterwards when you learned about the STDs 😨

This board has taught me it’s ok to feel sad for trans people and give them respect and love, but also say, I think women should be put first. They have fought so hard, let’s not set them back.

Exactly. Women should be put first, especially in their own spaces! Which can totally be done without being nasty to trans people, or even while having compassion on them. It really doesn't have to be one or the other.

Thank you for the good wishes 💙!

Depends whether they only got as far as sending out CVs and filling in forms, with a female name, or whether they were rejected after interview, when their sex/trans status would be obvious.

I can be angry with men for trying to access women’s spaces and sports, especially men who know full bloody well that what they are doing is predatory. But I can’t get mad at TW wanting that, even if I’m not agreeing they should have that access. I just feel sad they are unhappy..

Can you get angry with TW who refuse to accept that women have valid reasons not to give them access? That women's needs and feelings are as important as their own, sometimes more?

There can be a profound level of selfishness in men (and a few women) who are not themselves sexually predatory. And sadness alone doesn't protect women's spaces or sports from TW who decide they matter more. Anger is protective.

I wasn't aware that I needed scientific sources for my own experience...

Unless of course you mean that I shouldn't talk about my own trans experience because it doesn't align with The Orthodox Trans Narrative? Well, too bad, I will 😆

If only transwomen had the depth of insight into their condition that @Seethlaw has demonstrated. And were as sympathetic about our need for sex based rights and protections.

Perhaps if gender dysphoria hadn't been depathologised by muppets in the medical profession we wouldn't have to suffer the consistent incoherent ramblings of the ever delightful Mashapav. 🙄

Wishing you all the best for the future @Seethlaw 🌸

Out of interest, Seethlaw, have you actually had any gender affirming care? I ask because what you describe doesn't match my experience as a trans man very closely at all. Nor do I think you are accurately reflecting what trans people actually believe, no one thinks transition is a total cure to gender dysphoria and certainly not a quick one. For me however it has certainly been significantly relieved by GAC and now years on while I wouldn't say I never experience it any more, I certainly don't regularly experience gender dyphoria anymore and for the most part I'm very happy ith my body now (beyond a very normal middle aged wish that I was a bit younger and thinner which is quite distinct from actual dysphoria), and experience a level of comfort with myself I never imagined was possible before

I'd also suggest quite a number of the things on your list are not actually GD but rather the result of living in a transphobic society (worrying about whether you will receive proper medical care). And I can't say I devote a lot of time to worrying what other people are thinking of me, that's very much their own business, so I'm not convinced al of what you list is inevitable rather than - gently - just your own worries and preoccupations.

I must admit I assumed from the post that it was about being dropped by his existing networks, rather than bidding for work as an unknown.

Wow I intended to quote Seethlaw here and that's who this reply is to. Sorry for fat fingerings

Softboi or something? I'm quite sure the gen alpha have put a name to it but I'm so far out of the loop it's not even funny!

Can you explain why you are blaming lack of confidence in medical care on transphobia?
Are you suggesting if society wasn’t transphobic, medics would treat you as your acquired gender (obviously unwise), or that you wouldn’t mind telling them you’re trans?