Gender dysphoria is for life

[Seethlaw]

Gender dysphoria is a life-long condition, with or without transitioning.

Even after transition and in no particular order:

• Gender dysphoria is the unrelenting knowledge that under it all, despita everything you've done, your body is still and always will be the wrong sex.
• Gender dysphoria is scars on your body.
• Gender dysphoria is feeling guilty because you make your loved ones' life more complicated.
• Gender dysphoria is having to choose which pre-transition memories you can share and/or having to carefully rewrite them in the opposite sex.
• Gender dysphoria is having to choose between telling your new healthcare provider about your transition and your hormonal treatment, or risking them giving you inappropriate care.
• Gender dysphoria is a lifetime of medication and specialist appointments.
• Gender dysphoria is never being sure whether people truly support you or only humour you.
• Gender dysphoria is being clocked every once in a while and wondering how many people figured you out and you didn't notice.
• Gender dysphoria is wondering how and when you're going to explain to that new person you like that you weren't born the sex you present - and being anxious about how they are going to react.
• Gender dysphoria is never having the sex you really wish you had because even the best fake plumbing is nothing like the real one.
• Ironically, gender dysphoria can even be wishing you could dress or present in a more genderfluid manner, but anything that takes you closer to your birth sex presentation makes you feel worse, no matter how great you think it looks on other people of your desired sex.

And so forth and so on.

The idea that transition ends gender dysphoria is a harmful myth. Gender dysphoria is something that all trans people must learn to live with, whether they transition or not, and no matter at what age they transition. There's no avoiding it; there's no ending it. There's only managing it, carving a happy life for yourself around the good bits, and learning to handle the bad parts in a productive way.

I wish more trans people faced that reality, instead of insisting on living in a fantasy where going through the perfect transition and forcing people into behaving in the perfect manner would mean never having to suffer gender dysphoria ever again.

I think that those who insist on transitioning because they believe that this will eliminate their gender dysphoria, need to be told that it won't fully work.

That’s because for most of them, gender dysphoria is a symptom, not a diagnosis. They are not getting treatment for what is really causing them distress. They need to be told this first, not that the treatment won’t won’t work.

I do believe that, at least for now, there might be a few resistant cases where it seems like the dysphoria just exists for no reason, but I have zero doubt that those cases would be extremely rare.

So this is “true trans”?

So what needs to happen really is not as your OP is describing. Doesn’t it make more sense to describe it as:

“Gender dysphoria” is not lifelong. For most people, especially children and older teenagers, it’s a manifestation and symptoms of other problems which if correctly addressed first can see resolution of the symptoms experienced that are described as “gender dysphoria”. It should be viewed more positively as a symptom that can be ameliorated with proper support.

For those who extremely rarely fall into the tiny category of inexplicable ongoing sex body dysmorphia, they need to be aware that medical treatments aren’t the answer and there’s no end to problems if you pursue what is known as “transition”.

There were laws against gender non-conformity though.

everywhere? in every single part of the world throughout all of history?

I have no doubt @Seethlaw, from what you have written, that you are very clear about how your life works and that you think it’s relatively successful (in as far as any life can be considered successful by the person living it).

I have huge anger, however, for the whole TRA industry as it has convinced a state government in my country to pass a law that says any mother who says to their child that a discussion should be entered into when that child says “I am trans” can be arrested and charged with a crime. Or a teacher, or a priest, or a nurse, or a nun, or a doctor. In fact, if a family then decides to pack up and move to another state, that parent can still be charged. Or a brother or sister.

And my own state is wanting to copy that legislation. I am deeply angry that this is happening to me. I don’t expect to have that conversation with anyone. I live a quiet life. But I also don’t want to live with the threat of a criminal record. I want to live in a society where conversations of differing opinions are expressed without fear.

I am sorry. I cannot think kindly towards you.

Were there? I know there were early 20th century laws against cross dressing in the USA. But I can't think of any against gender non-conformoty in a wider sense.

In many places 'effeminate' men were suspected of being gay and could be caught in the net of anti-homosexuality legislation. But it was the sexuality that was illegal, not the lack of conformity.

And there have certainly been plenty of laws that prevented women living as men - by making it illegal for them to vote, own property, travel, or have autonomy. But it wasn't 'living as a man' or 'identifying as a man' that was illegal. It was and is a mechanism of control of woman-as-property.

I've had periods of gender dysphoria which I've dealt with by, basically, trying not to think about it too much. Now maybe people would argue that that isn't real dysphoria or something, but I feel in a slightly different context - e.g. being part of a trans-affirming community - I would probably have gone down the transition route, and be stuck with the consequences. I expect there are trans people in this position. A feeling they could otherwise have overcome is now stuck with them and, even if they don't realise it, making their life worse.

I think I agree with this. The transhuman quality of transition as it is too often presented ("Express your true self!", "Free the trapped wo/man inside you!", etc...), clearly appeals to a lot of people, especially the young ones still searching for themselves.

If instead it were seen as what it truly is, ie. a collection of cosmetic changes, some of which can come at a very high price (fertility, sexuality, organ function, and so on), I don't think it would be anywhere as appealing.

I think we're coming at this from opposite angles.

You're talking about what needs to happen, what can be done, and indeed in that case, then gender dysphoria is a symptom that can be alleviated or even entirely cured when the root cause of it is dealt with. I totally agree with that.

My post comes the opposite angle, which is precisely what happens when you only transition and don't deal with the cause of dysphoria. In that case, gender dysphoria cannot disappear, and thinking it will or should can only make the person even more miserable.

I had in mind when writing the post all the TRAs who insist that transition is the only possible treatment for trans people, that it necessarily makes trans people happier, and that gender dysphoria only remains because other people are being transphobic. It didn't occur to me that it could be read as a doom post. Thank you for bringing that to my attention!

@Seethlaw, thank you for this - your perspective is always really informative.

I was wondering - pre 1990s/2000s research in this area seemed to find that the vast majority of children who presented with some sort of gender distress or confusion - and importantly, who were left alone and not affirmed, because “watchful waiting” was the practice at the time” - grew out of their gender distress by puberty. The numbers were something like 90% desistance - and of that 90%, around 80-90% ended up being gay/lesbian.

So would I be right in thinking that when you speak of gender dysphoria being for life, you’re talking about that remaining 10% who didn’t desist? Or do you see it more along the lines of anorexia being a disease that you never get rid of, you just manage? (Or both, I suppose, though the childhood onset is harder to explain wrt the anorexia analogy.)

I totally share your anger.

any mother who says to their child that a discussion should be entered into when that child says “I am trans” can be arrested and charged with a crime

This is the exact opposite of what I want. It's abject and horrifying, and it cannot help the questioning child.

I want to live in a society where conversations of differing opinions are expressed without fear.

It's not even just about different opinions. It's about what the suffering people need, and what they need is an open discussion and exploration of why they feel that way, so that the root cause of their dysphoria can be exposed, and treatment/therapy can be applied to it, instead of just treating the symptom (the dysphoria).

I believe "true trans" people are extremely rare, and that in the vast majority of cases, gender dysphoria is a symptom of something else entirely, and it's that something else that needs to be unearthed. It makes me livid with anger that such conversations should be classed as "conversion therapy" and made outright illegal. That's the opposite of good care!

When older people experience dementia they may forget they have changed their body and become distressed by the absence of body parts. Obviously not something those poor children going through the puberty blockers trial will be thinking about. It rarely seems to get mentioned even by those discussing the health risks of transition. If it was such an integral part of someone's identity and they'd always known it you wouldnt expect that to happen.

I dont know how frequent this is, I need to do some more research, but it's likely to be a growing problem in care of the elderly.

@Seethlaw thanks for opening this thread, it interests me because i did a lot of research before deciding my position as a GC person.

But i am still unsure what i think about gender dysphoria as a symptom or an actual disorder, i was wondering what you think of DR Hakeem analysis.

Now maybe people would argue that that isn't real dysphoria

I guess it would depend on how long your episodes were. But over 6 months, there's no excuse to dismiss them, especially in the case of recurring episodes.

I feel in a slightly different context - e.g. being part of a trans-affirming community - I would probably have gone down the transition route, and be stuck with the consequences.

Exactly. Transition is presented as the natural way to deal with gender dysphoria, when really it should be reserved for extreme cases. People should be helped to disentangle from their dysphoria, not encouraged to get married to it instead. I'm glad this didn't happen to you, and I hope gender dysphoria leaves you alone from now on!

So would I be right in thinking that when you speak of gender dysphoria being for life, you’re talking about that remaining 10% who didn’t desist?

I'm talking about all the people who have transitioned, or who want to transition, without working on the cause of their dysphoria, either because it can't be found yet (the rare "true trans", even though even that is a misnomer, I think), or far more commonly, because they either don't want or haven't been helped to do the necessary exploration into the root cause of their dysphoria.

Even the 10% who don't desist are not even necessarily "true trans". It could just be that the root cause of their dysphoria hasn't surfaced yet (especially if they haven't received proper psychological help into exploring it), or that the gender dysphoria is easier to face than the root cause of it (I'm thinking in cases of sexual assault, for example).

Basically, I meant my post as some kind of warning. "If you have gender dysphoria, and you don't do anything to figure out where it comes from, then it's gonna stay, even if you transition." It's a warning that not only transition isn't a miracle solution to dysphoria, but that thinking it is is in itself a kind of magical thinking that can make things worse when it's eventually invalidated.

Thanks OP for the thread and your much wider contribution. As a parent of a so called ROGD teen, my reaction to your OP was exactly the same as @NotBadConsidering

She’s already put much the point much more eloquently than I could so I won’t bang on about it.

I wonder if there are any other (mental) health conditions which are accompanied by so much social ideological context? I think this really muddies the waters and makes it impossible for people suffering from gender dysphoria to receive the most appropriate treatment for them. Not least that in the UK at least it doesn’t exist. Here it’s GAC all the way and a “conversion therapy” ban on the table to end the last vestiges of open discussion.

The idea that gender dysphoria is for life and can only be alleviated by medicalisation I fear ups the “most vulnerable” stakes and strengthens the school to clinic pipeline. “These children need urgent help to alleviate their distress” and as the only “help” on the table is medicalisation, that’s what they’re getting

Sorry - turns out I did go on about it! And I appreciate that you are not advocating medicalisation as the solution- it’s just when all you’ve got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail (as it were). Medicalisation is the hammer here at a societal level

I wonder what the path through the current mess may be?

Yeah, that's one horrifying thought. And I can't be sure it wouldn't happen to me! I mean, right now, I'm certainly happier with the changes I've had done - but that's because I remember the path to them. I remember how I felt before, how I made those decisions, how good I felt as the changes happened. But if I lost all those memories, and was left with just the changes, would I still feel that they are right? Would they still make me happier with my body? Or would I be horrified or scared that someone somewhere did this to me? I can't know, by definition.

I mean, I don't think thinking about it would deter anyone - adult or child - from going through transition. But it's a valid concern regarding older trans people, which should be allowed to be discussed, and methods of dealing with it should be examined and tried.

You're gonna have to help me here 😅I've read some of Dr Hakeem's books, but I don't remember them that well, so I'm not sure which analysis of his you're referring to.

I'm so sorry! I really didn't realise that my post could be read in such a terrible way. Please know that I'm really not saying that children who experience gender dysphoria are stuck with it for life. I believe the exact opposite: that it will disappear naturally for most of them, and that even most of the rest can be helped with it through psychological exploration of the root causes of it.

I wonder if there are any other (mental) health conditions which are accompanied by so much social ideological context?

I can't think of one.

The idea that gender dysphoria is for life and can only be alleviated by medicalisation I fear ups the “most vulnerable” stakes and strengthens the school to clinic pipeline. “These children need urgent help to alleviate their distress” and as the only “help” on the table is medicalisation, that’s what they’re getting

No no no! That's the opposite of what I meant! Gender dysphoria is for life IF you don't look for the root causes of it. My post is meant as a warning: those who think that transition will make dysphoria disappear, will discover that it doesn't work that way.

Medicalisation of children is the very LAST thing I want. In fact, it's one of the two things that made me peak! Going after the children is downright evil in my eyes.

it’s just when all you’ve got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail (as it were). Medicalisation is the hammer here at a societal level

Except it was deliberately arranged to be that way. All we have is a hammer because all other tools were deliberately set aside in the first place. GAC was designated as the only acceptable treatment. It didn't turn out that way organically. And now that it's ensconced into society as the only possible treatment, as the natural way of dealing with dysphoria, every instance of dysphoria is mangled into looking like a nail, even when it's damn obvious that it's something else entirely.

I wonder what the path through the current mess may be?

I'm really afraid that only the money will talk, and that systematic medicalisation will only lose its appeal once too many very young detransitioners win legal cases against the doctors that transitioned them as kids :( I fear that only then will reason start to prevail again, and proper psychological care will be allowed to take back the absolutely fundamental place it should always have had.

My first boyfriend started having gender dysphoria when we were about 20. He was absolutely convinced he was trans. He grew out of it.

I still see him sometimes and he definitely hasn't had dysphoria for decades. He's glad he didn't cut his penis off or take hormones.

Thank you for clarifying that - my thoughts were similar to @Cantunseeit’s. I think the “gender dysphoria is for life” title is probably quite unintentionally misleading - especially as you are actually saying pretty much the opposite 😆

Also, @Seethlaw, have you come across this? The article it discusses seems to concur with your thoughts:

(c&p from my post on another thread)

SEGM have a report on a recent Acta Paediatrica article (by a Swedish gender psychologist) which basically points out that "gender identity" and "gender incongruence" are undefined terms that shouldn't be used as a basis for medical intervention:

https://nitter.net/segm_ebm/status/2082853108648997110

https://segm.org/gender-identity-conceptual-clarity

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apa.70686

Thanks Seethlaw

I’ve seen your posting I and I knew that was what you meant. Being around this stuff makes one paranoid (amongst other things!) and as you know there are so many bad faith activists out there that will twist anything into further ammunition to support “the trans train”, I wanted to share my perspective so there can be no accidental mis-interpretation!

I'm glad for him too!

Certainly - like alcoholism, eating disorders and depression and many other conditions, gender dysphoria is something you "live with" rather than obtaining resolution. As with all of these, with the right support, that "living with" can be a vibrant and whole and well-lived life. I am convinced that affirmation of a fantasy is never going to be the right support. And although it never quite goes away, it can certainly get a lot less. I had in my teens twenties and thirties what would definitely be diagnosed as gender dysphoria today, but it was a long time ago and I didn't have the vocabulary or courage to talk about it and the pressures of needing to earn a living meant I didn't have the leisure to research or obsess over it, and when I started having a bit more leisure to think about it properly I discovered gender critical feminism and reframed my previous experiences within that understanding. The dysphoria hasn't quite gone away - I could yet choose to elect for a double mastectomy if I magically have the funds - but I would be under no illusion that such surgery would make me male. I have one body, it is female. I have no gender because that is sexist bollocks. But that's not a position that one can decide on rationality grounds to adopt, the heart feels what it feels and wisdom accretes as slowly as a stalagmite and cannot be sped up by effort of will or reading a convincing post on mumsnet.

Seethlaw

Thanks for this thread and being on so many of the others.

How do you feel about the work done by the trans lobby that has removed gender dysphoria as being part of being trans?

Those that I know that call themselves trans sexuals tell me that it is part of who they are and is why they don't support trans gender.