The future of gender ideology

[PeachyDaisy]

Is anyone else feeling really pessimistic about the future of women’s sex-based rights?

I know the UK has been doing better than many other countries in pushing back against gender ideology (although there is still a long way to go), but it feels like much of the rest of the Western world has already been captured by it, both culturally and legally.

Looking 50 years into the future, I honestly worry that most Western countries will have moved to self-ID, with only a few exceptions remaining. Hopefully the UK is able to stand firm, but I’m not even confident of that especially if all of the western world has fallen.

I know the gender ideology movement is never going to disappear. It will continue to control universities, many industries, and parts of society. There will also always be a significant number of people who either support, or simply don’t see a problem with, males accessing women’s spaces if they identify as women.

I wonder if others feel the same — that this is a temporary cultural moment that will eventually shift, or whether these changes are likely to become permanent.

My own feeling is that it's an ideology which does not bear examination, exploration, or close contact with. We are that in polls - every year people know more and agree with it less. In the Giggle vs Tickle case it seemed okay in theory to just give Roxy what he wanted - where could be the harm. That was Sal Grover's starting position, to include transwomen. Then came challenging behaviour and unreasonable demands and realisation that things had gone too far in terms of law to just say No. And for the sake of one man a resource to help women can't be offered.

I don't see new evidence of arguments from the trans side supporting their inclusion in the category of women. I hear the same poor arguments again and again. However I am reading and hearing in real life more examples of experience and a lot more awareness that one child/adult in a family expecting or needing everyone to change behaviour - despite sympathy for the person - is increasing scepticism and distrust around the ideology. It is the sunlight that will undo this.

My pessimistic view is that it’s most popular in the most sexist and macho cultures where sex roles are rigidly defined and policed, and unfortunately the majority of the world is like that. So I don’t see it dying out just yet. It’s too use useful to men.

I remember that when I was a kid in school being taught about some of the things that happened in the past, I couldn't get over how people could have ever believed what they believed - like the witch trials etc.

Given we know that it's not possible that people can change sex, I can only envisage that kids in the future will be thinking the same sorts of things about this too. And the whole world will be looking back and wondering what on earth happened at this point in time.

The thing is most people know. The general public is not really believing it, but those in charge are pushing it. It will come falling down though. Everything built on lies eventually does.

I think that the current situation will not continue.

Because it is crumbling. Once the Olympic committee agreed that no male
person can be in female events and will screen this, everything will now
crumble.

How can countries allow a group of people to only be ‘female’ for some things and not others?

How can countries legislate that a person’s subjective belief that isn’t based on material reality is treated as material reality?

The incoherence of this premise is the undoing of it all. I think that people will transgender identities will have some protections as per philosophical belief, but that no one will have to act as if they support that belief in anyway. Just like other philosophical beliefs.

I think as it became more mainstream it exposed some of the most vocal proponents to public scrutiny and that has sown the seeds of its destruction. Middle aged men (some of whom have verifiable questionable behaviour) aren’t really the best advert for gender identity.

Roxy Tickle may drive the law back in the opposite direction. Heather Herbert’s tweets speak for themselves. Sarah Jane Baker’s criminal record is undeniable. Many young people are going struggle to identify with them. I suspect that the more mainstream and middle aged it becomes the less young people will feel drawn to it. It’s not alternative and radical if your parents support it to be cool.

The medicalisation of children is coming under increasing scrutiny and I think that it will only take a couple of successful detransitioner law suits before professional indemnity insurance for doctors working in this area becomes unaffordable.

Sport is seeing an increasing pushback because biology is proved to matter. The Olympic boxing broke the spell for a lot of people. Males punching females was never going to look good.

The battle is far from won but I don’t think gender identity overriding biology will survive because the more visible it gets the harder it become to defend.

The sterilisation and mutilation of children (especially children, but it's crazy for anyone) will be seen as a "what were they thinking?" time in history.

I hope that the whole of gender bullshit will go the same way.

How can countries legislate that a person’s subjective belief that isn’t based on material reality is treated as material reality?

Well they have. My country, Australia, has had this in law since 2013. 13 years of it.

God you people and your obsession with trans people is tiring. There is no such thing as gender ideology, it’s just the dog whistle used for feminist identified transphobes to cause a culture war.
Self ID should be the default as all the civilised countries use it, only in the banana republic of Britain do we not have it because a few anti trans cranks have captured the system with money.

I'm with ScarlettSunset on this - looking back over history there have been some very very weird 'fads', some more murderous than others, like the witch trials, or just daft like Tulip Mania or the South Sea Bubble.

There are also examples of societies being controlled by very small groups of religious men - I'm thinking of Ireland around the mid 20c. - looking back now, you just think - there were so few priests, why didn't the people just tell them to feck off? [discuss in 1,500 words.. focusing on how it was the male section of society who benefitted most, even the least socially advantaged males....]

But ideologies can get into the fibres of a society, which religion did in Ireland - some of it for very logical reasons, i.e. that Catholicism had emotionally and practically sustained the Irish people through centuries of brutal occupation and oppression, and it served the new, impoverished independent state well to let the well-organised church continue to run schools, hospitals etc.

Likewise, it serves 'the patriarchy' [discuss in 1,500 words.....] to have an ideology that makes putting women in their place 'respectable' again, after decades of struggle for women's rights, and some achievements e.g. equality legislation.

Eventually reality catches up with ideologies that are based on falsehoods.
This too shall pass.
I cling to that belief, and every new achievement, every new employment tribunal judgement, every new sports ruling body, gives me hope.

I'm really concerned that this is part of something bigger. A return to beliefs playing a larger part in society, a push back against women across the world, a distrust and campaign against scientific method, against western liberalism.

As said above, this is linked to misogyny, which is growing and a real push for women to do as they're told, be kind, prioritise the men. In a world of shrinking jobs I think women will be nudged out of the workplace - back to caring for free (so much cheaper).

We've never stopped mutilating children. Genital mutilation still exists and cosmetic surgery grows and grows - and this is self mutilation too. Capitalism doesn't care about children - it cares about money and this ideology makes money.

I know and Gillard has behaved appallingly.

I am also Australian and I don’t believe it will last 50 years at all. Gillard’s govt over reached.

How many people do you know personally Peachy who believe that male people can be female people in reality?

It has been 13 years before it really came to public notice. I guess Masha would say that means it’s harmless and integrated, but the reality is that it can take some time for the effects of bad law to be recognized and it takes even longer for the bad law to be repealed.

Given that the concept that this law means that MrTickle is a woman in every sense of the word and that he can now, legally force himself into any women’s space he wants, leaving women no power to have him removed, I think he is a perfect demonstration of why this is bad law. I guess he hasn’t hurt any women yet (that we know of) which is the only thing in his favour.

I suspect many of those bringing in these laws never really considered the consequences. I think the ideology will eventually fail as it’s obvious that Tickle is not some feminine, terribly sad man who needs society to look after him because his mental health is so fragile (the lie we were sold). Rather, he appears to be a bog standard man who just fancies using women’s spaces for unconfirmed reasons.

I also think the whole medical complex will eventually fail too. Our dual problems are that it’s so well embedded in various parts of society, some of which hold a lot of power and the fact that the men we are fighting have shown throughout that they have no moral values and no intention of complying with decency unless actually forced. Even where the law is against them, they are now ignoring it.

So it’s not going to be an easy ride, but unless something unforeseen happens, I think it will die a death.

I think the vast majority of australians don't care. Unless it affects you directly, most people won't give a shit about this issue. Hence we are left with the status quo.

Also just to clarify, I don't most TAs think transwomen are biologically women. They say 'TWAW' because they think TIMs should be treated as women, even though they know full well they are still biologically men. It is a normative statement about social treatment.

It doesn't matter that most people aren't true believers - they don't need to be.

They just need to do what they're doing - shut up and put up, rather than standing up and fighting back.

It only needs a few strong activists to get into the right places in institutions - the judiciary, NHS, prisons, civil service to change things - this has already happened and people have just quietly rolled their eyes and put up with it.

Anyone who speaks up, ends up sidelined and ultimately unemployed and unemployable - and in the current employment situation, no one is going to risk that. (other than fools like me)

It only needs a few strong activists to get into the right places in institutions

I don't think it is only a few strong activists sadly. In universities, public service, charity sector, DEI departments etc the percentage of people who strongly subscribe to this ideology is probably well over 80%

I see that this could be similar to the thalidomide scandal. There will be a generation where some children have irreversible and entirely preventable problems caused by the misapplication of medical procedures. I also hope that as medical practitioners become able to resist the ideology that captured institutions and professional bodies without losing their jobs and reputations that fewer and fewer will offer physical treatments.

@PriOn1 In terms of Tickle - there will be some women who are genuinely 'where's the harm, why can't you be kind', some who can see the harm but don't feel able to do anything - they've been shown what happens to you if you try.

I imagine most men will find it either funny or as my male relatives do, go 'he's clearly a wierdo' and just shrug their shoulders, happy that women get to deal with it and he's not in their facilities making them feel uncomfortable.

If it comes down to it men will do what is best for them.

@PeachyDaisy I really don't think 80% of NHS workers are strong believers.

I imagine it's more like 5% - but they will be in positions of power and influence and NHS bullying culture is so rife that people have learned to shut up and put up about all sorts of things - this is not their priority.

Masha, you keep wanking on about “the money” like a proper conspiracy theorist.

You have no evidence at all that the court systems have been “bought” in the UK. None.

It is a grossly defamatory statement and a lie. You can’t seem to accept rationality or the judgement of the highest courts in the land.

You can’t accept that there was a huge fundraising amongst grassroots real women who are angry, upset and fearful
of having our sex class erased in law when we need it to be recognised to secure our own rights.

Female people are a class that is subject to male violence in a grossly disproportionate way because we are not as strong as men.

We will always fight to protect our needs and rights from appropriation by men who think they would prefer to be women.

You are not female and you know literally nothing about the reality of being female in a world run by and for men.

Follow the money.

As a pp said, more and more medical professionals will pull out of the gender mess as more and more detransitioners win big bucks in trials, making insurance rates soar.

And states who pay for medical transitions will eventually find a way to put an end to it, because it's ridiculously expensive. My own country's NHS complains about its expenditures, and has raised the flat rate everyone has to pay even for prescribed medicine, while at the same time paying through the nose for cosmetic treatments for trans people. I don't foresee that continuing for long without someone raising a stink about it.

My worry is that women’s rights are being squeezed on the one hand by the misogyny of transactivism in supposedly liberal countries and on the other by the old fashioned type with the rise of Christian Nationalism and also Islamism. People who pretend they don’t understand what a woman is and therefore why she might need a few specific sex-based rights versus those who know what a woman is - the second sex, who can have her hard-won rights removed. The USA is the obvious case but there are other right-wing movements liable to oppress women in Europe.

I really don't think 80% of NHS workers are strong believers.

Maybe not the NHS, I don't know about that institution as I dont live in the UK.

But universities and the charity sectors I could well believe over 80% believe in it

I know quite a few who are directly impacted through work and family. I cannot imagine actually, that at this point 'the vast majority' don't care because of the breadth of the impact. I suspect they do care but they don't discuss it.

Only a year ago, I sat in a pub in a regional town and listened to a group of men with trans identities discuss how they had recently dealt with the 'hate'. These were men from rural communities and if what they were saying is what they really did, then I suspect that even in rural communities there is going to be push back.

Like the mother of the little girl that one of them gave an answer to when questioned 'are you a girl?' and he started talking about breasts. Like the gym manager who when she asked if the male who was using the female changing rooms and could he please use the unisex changing rooms, was female, received in answer dropped gym bottoms. He proudly spoke to his mates about 'showing her that he was female' and completely unironically started to tell her about sexual harassment.

I think that there is probably the same % of people in Australia that care as in the UK having experience in both countries. People in general in the UK are not really having that many discussions about it day to day either, just in case you think that they do. But when you ask people specific questions, they will not be supportive of allowing male people to access female single sex provisions.

It might be a 'normative statement about social treatment' but considering what is happening in the NSW court at the moment with Kirrily and what has been happening in Victoria and other states, I also understand the reluctance of many to say anything.

It will take time, but it will change. Because how can a government dictate that people act as if they believe someone's subjective reality is material reality when there is no material reality grounding that subjective reality at all.

It is not sustainable.

I suppose what I mean is that presented as a theory it sounds okay. And although the arguments don't come with robust evidence they sound harmless:

Most vulnerable. Small numbers. So sad/be kind. Gay Rights 2.0. Transwomens brains are like women's brains. You never noticed before (we've been passing for decades). This is progress. Clownfish and hermaphrodite = biology is not fixed or binary. RSOH. Etc.

The people who might support the ideology because of those arguments are going to think again as there is more visibility given, more discussion and more in the way of practical consequences (in the news and even more importantly in their own social circles). More exposure to the downside/flipside.

Bullying by TRA groups such as bash back becoming more visible. Court cases lost and ridiculous claims and behaviour exposed in these. Detransitioner stories breaking our hearts. Discrediting of the claims of 40% suicide rate etc. More evidence on effects of gender medicine and of self serving WPATH etc. Organisations realising they have been bullying their workforces in the name of inclusion and it's hurting the bottom line. Families being split on this. Safeguarding issues.

it's a lot harder where the law has embraced GI. But I think even there the balance is adjusting.

In my view it's the pro trans cranks have captured the system with sheer bloody mindedness and the extremism such as "chestfeeding" so someone can have an "experience".

Self ID? So because someone "feels" a certain way it means that they are, despite all evidence to the contrary? If I identify as Mr Blobby am I really Mr Blobby? It's all the Emperor's New Clothes.

However as always, the vocal minority who shout will get what they want and usually at someone else's expense.