The future of gender ideology

[PeachyDaisy]

Is anyone else feeling really pessimistic about the future of women’s sex-based rights?

I know the UK has been doing better than many other countries in pushing back against gender ideology (although there is still a long way to go), but it feels like much of the rest of the Western world has already been captured by it, both culturally and legally.

Looking 50 years into the future, I honestly worry that most Western countries will have moved to self-ID, with only a few exceptions remaining. Hopefully the UK is able to stand firm, but I’m not even confident of that especially if all of the western world has fallen.

I know the gender ideology movement is never going to disappear. It will continue to control universities, many industries, and parts of society. There will also always be a significant number of people who either support, or simply don’t see a problem with, males accessing women’s spaces if they identify as women.

I wonder if others feel the same — that this is a temporary cultural moment that will eventually shift, or whether these changes are likely to become permanent.

I don't think the average person in Australia knows many trans people or has anything to do with trans people or trans issues.

Even for myself, I care a lot about this issue but I will be honest and say that it doesn't have any affect on my life day to day. I care about this issue more on principle than the fact that it affects my life directly.

And yes I think most studies show that this is still a pretty low priority issue for australians. Australians for the most part only care about the cost of living, immigration, housing, healthcare etc. If they truly cared about this issue they would stop voting for the labour party which just continues to extend self-id.

I think many people have believed in the concept of a "gendered soul" for a very long time. I don't see that going away. Nor do I think it needs to. People should be free to believe in whatever helps them to make sense of the world. However, they shouldn't be allowed to impose it on others and there should be safeguarding in place to prevent vulnerable people damaging their bodies in the pursuit of their belief.

I agree with PPs who say that in the future societies will look back on the time when that belief became imposed (sometimes in law e.g. Australia) as if it was factually true as shameful and ridiculous. Women's sports and places like rape crisis centres will be a part of the awakening but I think it's the impact on thousands of children (hundreds of thousands globally?) that will be the biggest cause of collective shame as it will come with a grief for the damage that has been done to them. There will be a spike in a generation of children who will have taken medication that likely impacts their brain development, fertility and physical health.. and who have gone on to have body parts removed.. all in the name of this belief. Their journeys into adulthood will be visible, a bit like a growth ring in a tree, internationally as statistics in medical institutions because of the inevitable complications that will happen during their lives.

Much like the witch trials or burning of Catholics was the overreach of Christianity, what's currently happening in the push for gender identity belief to be imposed on everyone is an overreach. It will be seen as such after we reach the threshold where the harms can be seen widely enough. Sadly, until then more children who are currently physically healthy will continue being harmed. And women's sports and spaces will continue to be used by males.

God, yes, I share all these worries too. I think for my own mental health I wish I could just become a hermit and bury my head in the sand but I know too much now.

Rationally, I comfort myself with the thought that belief in gender ideology and all the crazy medical aspects and twisting of social norms will follow a similar path to how lobotomies fell from favour in society. Most were performed in the 1940s to 1960s. There were still some being performed in the 1970s but then they petered out and we look back in horror at that time.
(Ai) Decline: The practice declined throughout the 1950s due to:

• the introduction of antipsychotic drugs,
• growing recognition of serious side effects,
• ethical concerns about the procedure.

I think it's a fair comparison medically speaking. I tell myself 'this too will pass' and I know I can never actually be one of the people who puts their head in the sand because I can't ignore injustice. I find it interesting from a social perspective that many people either know the truth and choose not to think too hard about the facts and speak out ( and by speak out, I mean even in the gentlest of ways), are wilfully ignorant and actively try not to examine the issue or know damn well and are basically happy to deprive women of their sex-based rights i.e. complete misogynists. But I think there is an ever growing number of women, men, gay people and possibly even trans people who have had enough of this bullshit.

I'm going to be controversial here but I've never thought this issue had anything to do with misogyny. If transmen were the focus of the debate (instead of transwomen), I think the TRAs would be fighting just as hard to defend them and their right to access spaces based on declared identity. Just my opinion

This is spot on.

Sport is the window into "this is bullshit"

As much as you might say TWAW sport then adds 'except in this situation' and allows people to say it out loud even in countries which are full wang.

No one, not even true believers, really believes it. And that's where it's downfall lies.

People are saying 'follow the money' on this thread. They are forgetting the important one as part of that. Insurance. There is a liability bubble forming.

Certainly in the UK the liability bubble is growing and the US runs the risk of a liability bubble burst which would very much lead to support in corporate circles collapsing.

As others point out, it's part of a tide of rising misogyny, but there's plenty of ways to do that without genderwang. It's thought of as the acceptable way to be misogynistic but frankly I think more traditional ways to be a sexist prick are just as acceptable in many circles and men often don't give a fuck anyway.

The other thing is this fills the emo alternative space. There's limits of where that can go before it falls out of fashion again. We are going to see a backlash amongst the youngest age groups for this reason. They know it's bullshit and that their peers who buy into it are the most fucked up and demanding. And they will lose patience. Something else will come along to fill the void. There's a new trend in this space about once a decade. Don't be surprised if there's a Dungeons and Dragons mass trend incoming in the next few years complete with high street fashion.

Transmen are not the focus though. And there's a reason for that.

As with any trend they fit within a wider context in society. Trans happened at the same time as rise in other forms of misogyny for a reason.

Transmen are never the focus because they are the useful gotcha.

I think gender ideology is part of a wider anti-science, ant-rational, post-truth trend in society, where even the most unlikely conspiracy theory will be around the world on social media in the blink of an eye - not just before 'the truth has put its boots on', but even after the truth has put its boots on, and proved beyond reasonable doubt that the conspiracy theory is groundless nonsense, - but look, there it is, still winning hearts and minds on SM.

We often see it on this board where inaccuracies, like that sex is a spectrum, or JKR hates transpeople, or whatever, just keep popping up no matter now many times they are conclusively, and reliably, shown to be wrong - as in inaccurate as in non-factual as in untrue.

And yet, probably even as I write, somebody is planning to intervene on this board or this thread to 'educate' us that sex is a spectrum, you ignoramuses, or JKR is a transphobe, you bigots, and this is a hate-fuelled echo chamber...

I think gender ideology is part of a wider anti-science, ant-rational, post-truth trend in society, where even the most unlikely conspiracy theory will be around the world on social media in the blink of an eye - not just before 'the truth has put its boots on', but even after the truth has put its boots on, and proved beyond reasonable doubt that the conspiracy theory is groundless nonsense, - but look, there it is, still winning hearts and minds on SM.

We often see it on this board where inaccuracies, like that sex is a spectrum, or JKR hates transpeople, or whatever, just keep popping up no matter now many times they are conclusively, and reliably, shown to be wrong - as in inaccurate as in non-factual as in untrue.

And yet, probably even as I write, somebody is planning to intervene on this board or this thread to 'educate' us that sex is a spectrum, you ignoramuses, or JKR is a transphobe, you bigots, and this is a hate-fuelled echo chamber...

It's symptomatic of a number of issues grown in the last decade or two.

Increasingly poor mental health care provision with resources stretched to barely being there at all, and a lot of focus on maintaining rather than actively seeking to achieve improvement

A normalisation of violence, social dysfunction and pathological behaviours that previously wouldn't have been tolerated in public, around children or to dominate other people's needs and rights

The increasingly vast gap between the majority of the general public and many influential, highly educated, affluent, middle class people in a small, undiverse and intolerant ivory tower culture, in positions to try to impose their personal and often very naive views on others, continuing a belief some centuries old that this is how you gain social improvement in the world; by forcing everyone to be more like you. (They often have a fond and misled belief that they're anti colonialism)

An increasing deterioration of beliefs in equality and tolerance, particularly for women and racial/religious tolerance.

We're seeing women's rights being openly torn down by the ruling class and actual government via derision about women's voices and needs, refusing to obey the law to permit women's legal protections to happen in practice, statements such as demonstrated on this thread in real time about there being no issues - which leaves you wondering if the speaker is that delusional and able to block out bits of reality that don't jive with their agenda, or whether 'no issues' just means 'harms only happen to humans I don't give a shit about'. Both would seem equally appalling really.

While the government and people in positions of responsibility are modelling 'prejudice is a good thing, you should do it like me' to the general public, it's a bloody awful time to be a woman. Or a child. What unfortunately the activists have never clicked on is that once you've torn down the ethics, the honourability and culture that supported equality because that lets you trample the people you personally don't like and want to use unimpeded - it's only a matter of time before a more powerful group turn up and charge through the door you opened, to use the same methods to trample you.

It's gormless.

Transmen are not the focus because there is less of a need to keep them out of places, not because of misogyny. It is just biological reality that they pose less of a risk. GI ironically arose in some of the most gender equal/ least misognisitic places on earth.

I think gender ideology is part of a wider anti-science, ant-rational, post-truth trend in society

True. I think it is also about having a civil rights cause. Progressives always need a civil rights cause to champion and after marriage equality was gained, they chose trans rights. To them lived experience and personal identity is more important than biological reality.

Transmen are not the focus because there is less of a need to keep them out of places, not because of misogyny.

I disagree. Transmen are not the focus because they are not talked about by TRAs, and they are not talked about by TRAs entirely because of misogyny. The trans movement is all about transwomen, it's centered around transwomen, no matter that it's most often transmen who do the drudging, day-to-day work of keeping it going.

I disagree. Transmen are not the focus because they are not talked about by TRAs, and they are not talked about by TRAs entirely because of misogyny.

I think feminists like to think every issue comes down to sexism. For example, if transmen were the focus of the debate they would probably still claim it was due to misogyny (transmen being female). As it stands, i think it has nothing to do with it

Also.

Do not underestimate the power and ability of extremist genderwangists to alienate and piss off people.

Especially if groups like BashBack gain traction.

Only madness lies in that particular direction for GI and that seems to be the primary direction of traffic at this stage.

There isn't really a moderate pathway of rationale and social media influence forming. Even now.

Therein really lies transactivism problem. In a social media led world if the influencers getting clickbait traction are all crazy it makes you all look crazy and that in itself is somewhat unsustainable from a political point of view if you wish to be electable.

The mainstream public will only follow down this road to a point. There is a cliff edge.

Oh you again, trotting out the same tired lines.

I would be very interested to see any verified evidence that the “anti trans cranks have captured the system with money”

There is an increasing number of women and some sane men who delight in calling out your nonsense. Try to gather some grace in your defeat.

I personally have the opposite view. I think it has proven unsustainable to allow personal feelings over objective reality. The people pushing Self-ID were clearly self-serving in multiple ways will fall over apart from in very extreme environments.

It may have worked when people were trying to show that they were kind, but since the transgender community especially transwomen have behaved incredibly badly and disrespectfully towards women it makes it hard to support them. "This isn't Working" YouTube video goes into more detail about why organisaations are pully thier support.

I think that the kids caught up in the ROGD will start pushing back in a couple of years and will realise what had happened- I think Non-Binary will be put down to a teenage fad such as punk, emo, goth and Trans will be considered the worlds first internet cult.

I also think it will start a backlash against the concept of "Human Rights" . Alot of damage has been done to this organisations as they didn't even acknolwedge the clear conflict between safe spaces for transwomen and women let alot manage it at all. They have lost the trust of reasonable men and women and will find it difficult in future to lecture the general population on "moral" and "ethical" behaviour.

I think gender ideology is part of a wider anti-science, ant-rational, post-truth trend in society, where even the most unlikely conspiracy theory will be around the world on social media in the blink of an eye - not just before 'the truth has put its boots on', but even after the truth has put its boots on, and proved beyond reasonable doubt that the conspiracy theory is groundless nonsense, - but look, there it is, still winning hearts and minds on SM.

I think this is right, and it seems obvious to me that the push to gender ideology is part of a bigger movement to undermine Enlightenment values of the pursuit of truth, objectivity, the scientific method and so on.

If it's possible to persuade people that everyone has a gendered soul, or that sex is a spectrum, or that there are more than two sexes, or that everyone has the "right" to identify as they want, then you destabilise the previously widely-held idea that there is an objective reality or that there are universal values.

Once you accept that any man can legitimately identify as a woman, then it's a short step to persuading people that adults can identify as children, able-bodied people can identify as disabled, humans can identify as animals. We're already seeing this happening. At that point, the idea that there are some boundaries you do not cross (eg adults having sex with children or animals) starts to melt away. You could argue that this is, in fact, the endpoint of the postmodern turn that has swept through academia.

But while it's quite simple to explain to people that men shouldn't participate in women's sport - and most people who aren't totally brainwashed grasp that immediately - it's much harder to explain this bigger anti-science, anti-Enlightenment context.

I wonder if children are still taught the story of the Emperor's New Clothes, or if it's now frequently frowned on, because of the obvious common sense that it conveys in the face of the current clear madness that stamps its feet and screams that TWAW etc.

It wouldn't surprise me if the ENC becomes officially considered 'hate speech' eventually - with any parent telling the story to their children receiving a visit from the police and being referred to Prevent.

You can never obliterate sunlight; all you can do is force everybody into a room, pull down the blackout blinds and gaslight them that sunlight is just a wicked lie that nasty, evil, stupid people like to tell.

I agree. Transmen entering male only spaces pose either no threat, or are actually taking a risk- compared to the threat that transwomen pose to females- just by their physical strength and size.

I do also think there is some misogyny. Alot of the trans cause was taken up by gay men, many of whom are very misogynistic so it makes sense that they would would be ignored for this reason as well.

A lot of the money that keeps it going is public money, the country is up to it's neck in debt and we can't keep spending it like we've got loads of it, the public pursue strings are going to have to be tightened and the first thing to go with be the support for this luxury belief.
It's been mentioned on threads that the Humanities in Uni's are shedding staff, with the national debt being what it is, it's likely to get worse, because unlike science it can't pay it's way.
Once this codswallop stops being taught, once there are no non-jobs in the public sector for people with degrees in Whatever Studies, it'll all fade away.
Will be too busy trying to feed the kids to 'trans' them.

I think it's dead in the water. Absolutely done and in the UK we are just sweeping up the dregs of it. Young people are tired of it.
That said identity politics is a danger still and will continue to rear it's head over ever changing issues.

Sport is the window into "this is bullshit"

I agree with this. An awful lot of people just don't care to think through the ramifications of this beyond 'this is what makes them happy so we should be kind'.

Hopefully, once people can see the blatant unfairness in men's much greater strength and physical prowess leading to women having their rightful medals and trophies stolen from them, the penny might drop when they start to realise all of the things that men could use that greater strength for to violate women - and actually endanger women's lives - in more everyday scenarios in female-only spaces, when there are no TV cameras on them.

It is easy to be pessimistic, we are facing huge powerful institutions totally captured, BUT remember in fighting back we have help from how crazy the gender folx are. Look at some current developments.

Take the current Amnesty implosion. It would have taken people outside Amnesty forever to try and undermine the grip that gender stuff has on that org. It is a really powerful voice a huge asset to the Trans side. Yet by going too far and doing obvious defamation they have severely damaged their grip on the organisation and given our side a HUGE WIN. They did to themselves. It cost us nothing!

The Good Law Project has done massive damage to the trans cause legally in the UK by failing again and again. Yet it was all crowd funded by Trans activists.

Totally agree about the importance of the sports push back. The idea is falling apart and ending women's sports is VITAL to the entire trans project because for many men in dresses it is the most important thing to control. The wins in the Olympics are really important, but more are coming and the gender side are helping us.

The whole Sophie Cunningham basketball thing is HUGE in the States in last few days. For those not following what is going on after Sophie said women should have Sports the TAs went crazy. In a recent match a couple of teen girls supporting Sophie and their right to have sports were harassed by a TA woman millionaire who owns part of a basketball team who made them cry. All caught on tape. The millionaire has now been punished by the Basketball league. Sophie saying truth was a huge win, BUT no-one made the TA's bully girls on TV to show how awful they are. Only that bullying is all they have!

Thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5558154-us-womens-sports-star-sophie-cunningham-speaking-up-on-defending-womens-sports

the recent Radio Ulster interview with Helen Joyce and Allison Morris is a fabulous glimpse of where gender ideology is heading:

MORRIS: sex based rights are right wing right wing Trump Musk blah blah blah

JOYCE: The earth is still round and you are making a terrible show of yourself.

MORRIS: believing sex is real, binary, immutable is HATE and Trump agrees with you, right wing right wing right wing!

MOST PEOPLE IN ENTIRE WORLD: <I agree with Helen too, am I right wing now or is Morris a spectacluar idiot who willfully believes clear lies?>

Until about 15 years ago, the trans issue was purely about men who wanted to be women. Female-to-male transition was almost unheard of.

The idea that females can be trans was invented purely to give legitimacy to the numbers of men who get a sexual kick out of dressing as women and entering women's spaces. Those women – largely young, mentally vulnerable girls, often same-sex attracted, often neurodivergent – have been sacrificed in order to make trans seem like a universal human condition, as opposed to a niche sexual perversion.