Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces

[user08101988]

Started because a thread on Girlguiding was getting too off topic.

@user08101988 - do you think lesbian women should be coerced into accepting males into their groups, or into having penis-in-vagina sex with them?

Do you think biological females deserve the right to have some spaces entirely free of males?

Do you think women like me deserve to be threatened with violence, rape, death, for our views?

a male woman is like a spherical cube, ie an oxymoron aka a logical impossibility

Absolutely not! Just because a man puts a frock on does not make him a woman.
Biological women are entitled to their own spaces.

There are lots of subsets of dogs. Hounds, terriers, gun dogs. Hotdogs aren’t one of them.

Cis and white in the context of white woman or cis woman behave the exact same way grammatically

Nope. Not even close.

It is complicated though. Really complicated. And it's your insistence that it's simple and must be simple and can only be simple that is the problem. Life just doesn't work like that.

Anyways.

Your daughter is entitled to be comfortable, but she cannot waive the boundaries of every other girl. Some girls may stay silent because they fear being called unkind or transphobic. A girls’ space is defined by sex, not by a vote or familiarity with one male pupil; female privacy, dignity and safety do not depend on unanimous objection.

I’ll tell you what’s regressive for women (and men), and that’s pigeon holing women (or men) into stereotypes. A man can’t say he “feels like a woman” or “thinks like a woman” because women aren’t one homogeneous mass who feel the same or think the same. How would a man know what a woman thinks or feels like. How would I, as an actual woman know what another woman feels like?

instead we should be progressive into accepting that if a man wants to wear make up or a dress that’s ok. If he wants to like pink and take up knitting that’s perfectly acceptable for a man. If boys want to play with dolls that’s ok.

in the same vein women can like football, have short hair, not wear make up, do lots of weight lifting, never wear a dress……it’s all fine.

We are all very individual. You can’t say half the population feel one way and half another. Bonkers.

And you can’t change sex.

V odd.

No they don't

Words have meanings

No, it’s a demographic. As is ‘straight man’. The same as ‘woman’ is a demographic. It doesn’t need a prefix. ‘Cis’ implies a subset of that demographic, which as we all know cannot be correct as men cannot be women.

pantomime horses are horses!
snapdragons are dragons!
ladybirds are birds!

Yes but none of them are men.

You need to learn the difference between subsective modifiers that keep the original category of the noun intact (brown horse, cart horse, dead horse) and privative ones which denote a different category (clothes horse, saw horse, sea horse). Trans is privative. Only a man can be a trans woman.

I'm afraid silly linguistic sleight of hand is not going to help you here.

But in reality one describes a feature of skin, and other is a made up concept to sciencize nonsense.

It is wrong to assume that every trans-identifying male is dangerous, and nobody should be mocked or harassed. But a sex-based boundary is not an accusation against each individual. Transition does not change male sex, and female users are entitled to privacy and dignity without having to assess which unfamiliar male is harmless. Calling that boundary ‘bigoted’ avoids the conflict of rights.

You think male women are a thing. Now that is v odd.

CIS refers to gender. I don't believe in gender and do not want one ascribed to me.

I have XX chromosomes. I am a woman.

You’ve sort of replied. Thank you.

First, the problem I referred to was women needing protection. Not whether having a penis is a problem. It was women needing protection from men.

Second, I think you’d agree that rape is not a social problem. It’s one of the most physical and material dangers that women face.

Finally, I think you are resurrecting the argument that men rape even when we have single sex spaces. If men will rape regardless, then it makes no difference to letting transwomen (biological intact males) access single sex spaces. Is that the argument you mean?

In which case, you leave your front door open every day because burglars will steal regardless? This is a social problem caused by men who choose to steal. No need to take protective measures. You leave your car keys in your car as car thieves will steal regardless? This is a social problem caused by men who choose to steal. No need to take protective measures. You let your young children get into strangers cars because paedophiles will abduct children regardless? No need to take protective measures as this a social problem.

Have I understood your position correctly?

So an eye roll is absolutely unacceptable but calling someone a "fucking moron" is ok? Btw I'm pretty sure that's well accepted as being a ableist slur rooted in contempt for learning disabled people. You might want to reconsider.

Hormones, surgery, presentation and years of living differently can alter appearance; they cannot change sex. A male who retains his penis is not a hermaphrodite, and genital surgery would not make him female either. Clear words matter: a man is an adult human male and a woman an adult human female; services can treat trans people considerately without redefining either class.

The boundary is not based on an assumption that every trans-identifying male will confront someone. It exists because women cannot know which unfamiliar male is safe, and because privacy from the opposite sex matters even without violence. Single-occupancy unisex provision can be useful alongside women-only toilets, but replacing female provision with mixed-sex facilities removes a choice many women need.

Kindness and sex-based boundaries are compatible. Women explaining that woman means adult human female, and that some spaces must remain female-only, are not thereby expressing hatred. Calling the forum ‘hateful’ risks silencing the women whose privacy, trauma, faith or safety means they cannot use mixed-sex provision.

Cubicles do not make the surrounding facility single-sex: entrances, sinks, circulation areas and safeguarding still matter. Additional single-occupancy unisex facilities are a sensible option, but women-only provision should remain available rather than being converted into mixed-sex provision. Female privacy and dignity are not confined to open changing rooms.