Trying to understand everyday views on sex and gender discussions

[Schallern]

Hi,

I hope this is the right place for this post.

I am a bisexual female and have been friends for years with a very liberal, LGBT crowd. Past “trans women are women”, I never questioned anything.

I’m in my mid to late 20s now and I’ve recently expanded my social circle. As a result of this and moving away from purely LGBT spaces, I’ve had a lot more exposure to a wider range of political and social opinions.

A big one of these is the realisation that my previously, narrower social circle was very much an echo chamber. We just accepted everyone. That is lovely in some senses, but I also understand the world isn’t that simple.

Thing is, I’m struggling to even work out my feelings.

I’ve been taught that anything less than fully accepting trans people as the gender they want to present as is transphobic.

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

I understand this forum leans very heavily in one direction. However, that’s why I’m asking here. Do you discuss trans issues with your friends and own social circles? Does it even come up? What kind of conversations do you have?

I suppose I’m trying to get a gist for what “acceptable” opinions are outside of my own social scene. Like I said, it’s just “trans women are women.” Anything less is considered erasure and denial and would have an individual cast out!

Happy to answer any questions. I’m trying to think more critically and actually work out what my own opinions are. And please note that whilst I have obviously described myself as coming from a very liberal background, I’m very open to hearing views as I no longer know what mine are. It’s amazing how quickly things change once you’re in the “real world.”

OP, it is interesting that you phrased your question not in terms of what we all think, but what we think is an acceptable opinion. You also talk about your feelings first and foremost.

I would suggest considering the issue with logic and critical thinking, rather than with reference to what other people tell you to think, or what your feelings are. That's a more solid way to build an evidence based point of view.

Once you know what you think and why you think it, you can decide who to share that with - as you've noticed, not all opinions are equally socially acceptable in all circles.

I would start with:

• what is sex? Why has it evolved?
• why do we have separate services/ spaces for females, why was this considered necessary?
• what are the logical consequences of any position you decide to take

Eg if someone genuinely thinks TWAW, I would want them to consider what that means for, eg same sex medical/ social care and whether they really think, for example, elderly ladies should be forced to accept male carers and be gaslit that they are female - because that is one of the logical endpoints of that argument. 'Oh but that never happens' isn't an acceptable response - what is there to stop that happening if TWAW? (Answer- precisely nothing).

It is important, isn’t it, for some people to be able to say ‘I am not like THOSE women, I am KIND’ when the reality is their position still is unkind to female people. But because of the moral standard that they have personally set as the standard for what is and isn’t kind they can feel that anything less than there line of acceptance is not kind while completely fucking ignoring the real outcomes of their personal position.

how many times have we seen this over the many years?

It is like the times we should attempt to get an answer to the question ‘how many female people do you consider acceptable to be harmed before you choose to not support male inclusion into any female single single sex provision (over the age of about 8 yrs old)?’ Remember to similar questions we had 100 female people year harmed in the UK before it was considered a high enough priority. We also had an answer of 35.

The ‘I’m alright, Jack!’ attitude comes across as completely tone fucking deaf when you look at it objectively and without prioritising male people’s emotional needs above female people’s needs.

Yes.

we have seen each of the reactions that you have mentioned here as excuses why male people should be treated as if they are female. And not one of those is relevant when you strip away the emotional reasoning and apply facts and logic.

I agree.

The late Robbie Shepherd gave this explanation:

"Stubborn" and "Thrawn" arena the same.

It's "stubborn" when wee Johnny's mum tries to gie him some California Syrup [strong laxative] and he says "A winna tak yer California Syrup".

It's "thrawn" when wee Johnny says "A'll take yer California Syrup, but A winna shite!"

Following on from the 'bi-modal' clarification, anyone reading along might find this video interesting.

https://theparadoxinstitute.org/videos/is-sex-bimodal

The Paradox Institute have some interesting videos describing sex classification in humans and other stuff.

https://theparadoxinstitute.org/videos

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/06/third-of-britons-dont-know-trans-women-born-male/

Just a reminder of how female toilet spaces are used and why single mixed sex cubicles should not be accepted as the only toilets available in areas outside of very small businesses.

Toilets are not just used behind a closed cubicle door. There are quite a few aspects of female toilet usage that happen in the public space, or even now still occur with a toilet door jammed open.

Don’t forget there is the safety aspect where people may rely on the gaps under doors and walls for their safety. Single use mixed sex toilets are not safe for those who then have medical issues while using the toilet, or are being attacked in the toilet. The gap underneath the door is there for a reason, and that reason includes being able to see a person who has fallen onto the floor or if a person is being attacked.

Here is my personal list of things that I have had to use the female single sex toilets for:

I have had to use the toilet while having a pram / pushchair jammed into the door with groceries.

I have had to have my mum use the public toilet because the disable toilet was not available and had her wheelchair jammed in the door because I couldn't leave her sit to move it and shut the door.

I have had breastmilk leaks / children's vomit / food spilled on my clothes and needed to have an unbuttoned top to dry the top under the hand drier.

I have come across other women quite regularly washing out their tops or their skirts etc and drying them enough to put back on .

I have friends who have miscarried in toilets and needed assistance and for that to be female people to make it more comfortable.

The cleaning up of clothes for breastmilk leaks and for other spills has happened to me in a work situation. In fact, it has also happened in a conference situation. One of my friends miscarried at work.

At work conferences it is not uncommon to find women drying their clothes under the hand drier because they have spilled something on their clothes. Just recently, I had to help a work colleague to wash out her clothes where someone spilled coffee down the entire front of her top in the female single sex toilets at work.

That you (a general you) have not experienced these issues doesn't mean they are not happening. I am glad that some people have never needed to do this things, it is uncomfortable and can be quite humiliating. But at least, in a female only toilet, it is a little better.

And no mixed sex toilets don't work for quite a few different reasons. Including waiting for things to be dried if a cubicle has a hand drier is going to cause congestion and therefore stress for a person having to clean and dry themselves off in a mixed sex environment.

Yet, what also happens when me, as a woman, brings up these issues on threads where some people (including some women) dismiss the needs of female people to have single sex toilets with a communal sink area, I get called 'skeevy' and a 'toilet fetishist' all to shame me from pointing out that as a girl and a woman I have have had to use toilets in ways that other people either ignore or dismiss as unimportant with their statements that they 'don't mind' sharing with male people.

I've always found "they just wanna pee" to be quite telling because women don't 'just pee' in public toilets, they deal with other bodily fluids that men don't have to. So while they "just wanna pee" women are also potentially dealing with periods, menopausal symptoms, breast milk leaks, attending to the toileting needs of small children, avoiding men that are making them feel unsafe etc etc.

It's not just about 'pee' even if we only think about toilets and ignore the other female spaces.

And a fair chunk of the others think that trans women have been castrated.

I grew up at a time and in circles where it was fairly unremarkable for lads to wear eyeliner or nail varnish and girls to shave their heads and live in baggy jeans. Me and several of my friends were bi, and many of our idols embraced androgyny. We rejected gender stereotypes. We still do. We didn’t think that expressing yourself through your style made you a man or a woman, we thought that was regressive. We expressed our feminity and masculinity and everything in between without once imagining that that made us anything other than the sex we were born. This has shaped how I view issues around sex-based rights today. I reject gender norms and I support anyone’s right to express themselves whatever way they want, as long as it doesn’t harm or endanger others. Allowing individuals from a privileged group to identify their way into a more vulnerable group that has had to fight tooth and nail for the rights that they do have endangers that group’s safety and erodes the rights they fought for. And rewriting the criteria for classification into that group denies the realities that led to that group’s marginalisation and discrimination in the first place and seeks to make invisible the continued disadvantage that those realities present.

Ask yourself if you’re comfortable with the idea of people of a racial majority identifying themselves as a racial minority based on their feelings and preferences, and if not why?

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

The two sides are a) complete erasure of acknowledging women as a sex class separate to men in law and society so erasing women's sports, women's prizes, women's right to single sex prison provision etc and outright misogyny and homophobia and b) complete denial and erasure of trans people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

It's so nuanced in so many ways but also so very simple. We are mammals and as a species we reproduce with eggs and sperm. Two gametes, two sexes. There is no third gamete and no third sex. Some people have disorders of sexual development but this doesn't create a third sex and most trans people are very clearly male or female.

The definition of 'trans' actually comprises very different types of people with very different needs. There are teenage girls with gender dysphoria who have sexual abuse trauma and want to identify out of their sex especially when breasts grow and periods start. There are young boys and girls who are same sex attracted and as young children suffer from gender dysphoria and now they are encouraged to 'trans the gay away'. Look at the TED talk by the founder of mermaids and how her son liked girls toys and her homophobic husband couldn't cope with this.

Then there are men who have autogynephilia and have a sexual paraphilia where they get off on seeing themselves as women and they wear ridiculously pornography influenced clothing and enjoy transgressing women's boundaries. You can see the quotes from people like Grace Lavery and others which dehumanise womanhood and reduce it to vacant eyes and open holes.

Simply though also the whole 'trans' belief system defines womanhood as stereotypes enacted by people of different body types; rather than a body type that need not in any way limit the behaviour of the people who possess it. (I think Helen Joyce said that). You can have a masculine woman who loves maths and wearing trousers and this doesn't diminish in any way her femininity. A man can have long hair and enjoy flowers and this doesn't make him any less of a man. Gender stereotypes are limiting and put people in boxes. In the seventies people fought to break out of those stereotypes but gender identity theory defines everything by those stereotypes again and puts people back in boxes and hurts both men and women in the process.

In sports it is bodies who compete and not identities. People can believe what they like about themselves but they can't impose their belief system onto others - that doesn't mean I can't be kind and compassionate to my trans man friends. In almost all circumstances I would validate their identity but if they were to go to prison, I wouldn't want them locked up in a male prison.

I would say you can identify WITH the other gender but as the other gender.

I agree.

I have become more comfortable saying that I am trans (ideology) critical rather than gender-critical because that to me saying I am gender-critical is the same as saying I am race critical. Race and Gender will always exist because it is a societal expression of a genetic class and it will change depending who holds the most power in the society that the person resides.

I have also understood that the motivations for transitioning are different. Some people - usually traumatised gender-non conforming same sex attracted individuals want to erase their sex, and some people -usually traumatised opposite sex attracted men- want to gain sexual arousal/nervous system calming. Sadly because these groups are mixed up it is easier to hide as a predator.

Because of the mixing of groups and Self-ID that has removed the boundaries and safeguards of accessing "gender-affirming" meidcations and surgeries these groups have successfully become homogenised. This is causing terror in women, and putting vulnerable same-sex attracted kids permenant medicalised states. People with gender dysphoria are also now at risk, and because of the proposterous and misogyinistic drive of support of the gay rights organisations they have now given the bigots a reason to back after the gays/lesbians.

There is only one group of people who unilaterally benefit out of this mess. That is the predatory sexual perverts- everyone else is either neutral or loses.

But be kind though, eh? 🙄

Yes its very telling that the performative kindness only seems to extend to the male people and not the female people. Who could read your post and not have any empathy for women in the situations you've described?

It is interesting how the importance of single sex toilets to most women is derided as unimportant/ genital fetishism/ old fashioned etc, but at the same time is of such vital importance to trans women that if they are not allowed in this equates to erasure from public life.

If they identified WITH us, they wouldn't be riding roughshod over our boundaries.

This link just came up in my FB feed. I've never come across this young man before.

I'm hoping that this kind of early transition is no longer allowed in North America?

https://www.iwfeatures.com/documentary/jonni-skinner-says-he-wasnt-born-in-the-wrong-body-but-his-doctors-told-him-otherwise/

What sort of weird misogynist would say that?

I mean they identify with the sterotypes that they think define the other gender rather than the lived reality of being the other gender- gender being the societal expression of sex that is shaped by the values and culture at the time. An arabic man in the 1st century would dress as an arabic woman at the same time- no transwomen are wearing corsets and bustles in the 21st centrury.

@Schallern what was your experience like in a group where acceptance was a base belief? Did you find no difference whatsoever between trans women and women, trans men and men? Were there no concerns about safety? As a bisexual woman you are part of a demographic that is more likely to be sexually assaulted than most, and normally by men. Was it possible to talk about that and what drove with the whole social circle it without being dismissed or the risk minimized? Did you naturally have some conversations with only some sub-groups?

What sort of weird misogynist would call a woman describing why she needed female single sex toilets to keep the existing layout and was reminding others that female toilet usage varied and needed to be considered properly ‘skeevy’ and a ‘toilet fetishist’? Funny you should ask?

Maybe the same type of misogynist who tells women that our expectation that male people can self regulate and not access female single sex provisions is us supporting the medicalising of transpeople. By ‘medicalising’ read undergo extreme body modification.

Because apparently, male people should not be expected to make choices that allow female people to have the provisions we need, they instead will find a way to ignore the needs of female people and bypass consents. By changing their appearance as if that makes their personal choices male people acceptable.

Of course, they can then claim victim status that they have had to undertake such extreme measures to access female single sex provisions too. This is an extra layer of emotional manipulation and has worked to some success.

Look how many people on this thread have made the distinction between those male people with a penis and without.

Will we ever get an answer of what is the difference between a male person with a penis and one without, when harm and abuse to female people from male people do not require a penis for that harm and abuse to happen?

"I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?"

I think it is possible that some people's internal feelings around their sex and gender are more accurate than what their anatomy dictates. I think it is pretty rare though. Like just to put a number on it, I'd reckon at it being around 1-2% of people who think they are trans are "in the wrong body" so to speak.

I think the issue itself brings out the fundamentalists on both sides. That is interesting to watch as it reflects the type of online incel-like radicalism that comes from spending too much time on the Internet. Whenever you speak to fundies on either side, it all feels a bit intense and unhinged. All a bit Kathy Bates in Misery. Or worse Kathy Bates in Water Boy.

Everyday women who campaign to protect the provisions that were/should have been there for their needs have always been told we were the issue - we are ‘unhinged’, ‘hysterical’, ‘unkind’, ‘immoderate’. Whatever.

One could say that expecting society to act as if they believed that people can change sex and that sex is not important for single sex provisions fits the ‘unhinged’ description.

The ‘both sides’ shaming tactic is not new either. I believe Starmer joined in saying that at one time, what has he done about fully supporting female people’s needs in this issue to get resolution and predictability?