Trying to understand everyday views on sex and gender discussions

[Schallern]

Hi,

I hope this is the right place for this post.

I am a bisexual female and have been friends for years with a very liberal, LGBT crowd. Past “trans women are women”, I never questioned anything.

I’m in my mid to late 20s now and I’ve recently expanded my social circle. As a result of this and moving away from purely LGBT spaces, I’ve had a lot more exposure to a wider range of political and social opinions.

A big one of these is the realisation that my previously, narrower social circle was very much an echo chamber. We just accepted everyone. That is lovely in some senses, but I also understand the world isn’t that simple.

Thing is, I’m struggling to even work out my feelings.

I’ve been taught that anything less than fully accepting trans people as the gender they want to present as is transphobic.

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

I understand this forum leans very heavily in one direction. However, that’s why I’m asking here. Do you discuss trans issues with your friends and own social circles? Does it even come up? What kind of conversations do you have?

I suppose I’m trying to get a gist for what “acceptable” opinions are outside of my own social scene. Like I said, it’s just “trans women are women.” Anything less is considered erasure and denial and would have an individual cast out!

Happy to answer any questions. I’m trying to think more critically and actually work out what my own opinions are. And please note that whilst I have obviously described myself as coming from a very liberal background, I’m very open to hearing views as I no longer know what mine are. It’s amazing how quickly things change once you’re in the “real world.”

Apologies @Beowulfabut I really want to here what a TWAW person actually thinks form their fingers direct as it were

so anyone - what are the cognitive traits of women ?

There was one a few years back who didn't like having to play team contact sports at school, especially if it was cold. That was how he 'knew' he wasn't a boy.

My DH and both my DSs don't like sport. I love sport, I guess I'm actually the man of the house 🙄.

The group of people who fit under the term ‘gender critical feminists’ are ‘rigid’ about defining sex. They are not rigid about whether or not people from either sex category conform to sexist stereotypes.

This is how it works:

Feminist: Male and female people can do the washing up / be nurturing.

Sexist: Female people do the washing up / be nurturing (by majority of self reported questionnaire questions).

Gender: I do the washing up / am nurturing, therefore I am female.

Feminists are focused on providing equality of opportunity for female people, however they identify. To do this, this requires a definable category boundary for the group.

This is why it is imperative for those who fully support male people with gender identities being prioritised above female people to destabilise the definitions of the words that have been established over centuries that female people use for themselves.

That a male person can claim to be female because he has some personality traits that are commonly found in female people is an absurd proposition when to remove any emotional reasoning and analyse that claim with objectivity. And yet, we see this regularly on this board and in media.

Sex is biological and cannot be changed.
You can identify as another gender, but it doesn’t make you a different sex

I am quite rigid about gender

I rigidly suspect it’s all a load of rubbish and no one has yet been able to convince me otherwise

the complete silence on what it actually is, what makes me a woman ( if it’s not sex) is making me think they know that’s one discussion they will lose with anyone

And the state does not need to involve itself in categorising people who like or are good at doing the washing up or wearing high heels.

And there is absolutely no reason for people who do like washing up or heels to need to have changing facilities away from people who don't like washing up or heels whereas safety, privacy and dignity are all good reasons for people with female bodies to have changing room away from people who have male bodies.

It is the repetition that lowers the rejection of a false claim. Throw in the attitudes of moral judgement that comes from other’s of what is supposed to be ‘kind’ and ‘respectful’ which lower the mind’s likelihood of rejecting a false premise.

There is a reason ‘no debate’ worked so long.

And the repetition that some person declaring ‘they (a female person) don’t care if they share provisions with male people’ with the implication through layering of tone in their posts that anyone who does ‘care’ must be the ones who are wrong, and many female people stop voicing concerns.

Then comes the extra moralistic judgement and completely false claim that women’s and girl’s needs for female single sex provisions are so far down a long list and should be ignored. Well, this is fatally flawed as a distraction attempt.

Many of the highest priority issues for female people are negatively impacted by the inclusion of male people in female single sex provisions and by the inclusion of male people in the meanings of the words female people use to reference themselves as a unique group.

Women being a "statistical constellation of data points" is a direct quote from a trans identifying male poster; everything else I listed is paraphrased from the words of other TRA posts that I recall in recent years.

There is a helpful visual in the form of a picture of Eddie Izzard queueing with some women for the ladies toilets at Kings Cross station. Baileyonice is probably best placed to explain what links this group of people and why they should all be using the same toilet facility.

For me I am a big supporter of women's rights to single sex spaces and (one day, probably light-years after my lifetime) a world free of mens violence against women and girls.

Trans people really were not on my radar until cases like Sandi Peggie, the Darlington Nurses, finding out many changing rooms are now mixed sex, etc.

It's a change from what I felt was the status quo where transexuals would use woman's facilities like toilets, but NEVER intrude on changing rooms, showers or prisons. I always felt uncomfortable on a basic physical level seeing a man (trans woman) in the toilets, but use to feel guilty for that and give an accepting smile...

After TRAs pushed for access to all women's spaces they put themselves on my radar and after becoming a mum and being in states of undress in there I would support third spaces in the form of mixed sex toilets. I never got the "but they just want to pee argument", try finding a space to pee with a pram? Finding a mixed sex space is far easier.

I wouldn't say I am transphobic or against trans rights. I just don't want women to have to budge over and give up their spaces for men who identify as women.

I also feel desperately sad for the section of trans men who are trying to look less womanly as a response to sexual abuse, as women always have, but medicalisation is harder to reverse than simply dressing less femininely.

It's a good question op. I was you a few years ago and I still find it fascinating about how many people who identify as socially liberal are as close minded and black/white thinking on some topics as socially conservative people, often more so!

In many ways people on the extreme sides of a spectrum have more in common with each other in their way of thinking ("no debate!" etc) than they do with more moderate people in the middle who are more of a "it depends" and "consider different scenarios separately" mindset.

Personally I would hazard a guess that the average person on the street really doesnt think that much about the issue either way.

If they do their views are almost definitely (mis)informed by lack of facts and assumptions (as well as, particularly for women, the "be kind" narrative) - its very clear from stats and phrasing of various reports that lots of people dont even get that "transwoman" means a male identifying a a woman, rather than someone who is born female and identifies as trans and vice versa.

Many others assume trans means someone who has fully socially and medically transitioned and so their view is based on that rather than understanding the full impact of selfID - if you think of a trans woman as being someone who has lived as a woman for decades, has had full genital surgery etc its a very different preposition and starting ground for what you might think of as "fair" than allowing a 6 foot 2 man with a beard and penis who until yesterday was still going by Dave alone in the changing room with your 10 year old dd.

I listened to most of the testimony of the (TW) claimant and their witness in the Tempest Tribunal. And the cross examination of the employee witnesses. It really crystallised for me that many TW and their allies (the kind of ally that will come to a feminist discussion board to scold the mummies) have built a straw man the size of Blackpool Tower of what they say are “GC beliefs”. And it is that straw man that they continually argue against, not the patient, repetitive explanations of what we do think. And we keep going round and round and round having the same bloody arguments that descend into “you’re all unkind/TERFs/Nazis” because they arrived at their position based on emotion and feelings, and not facts and thinking things through.

Well, Fuck. That. Shit.

I’m sorry that for many TW, like Tempest, reality itself is deeply disturbing to their psyche. And that they cannot cope with someone simply saying “I believe that sex is binary and immutable”. I’m sorry for them that the cognitive dissonance that produces is so uncomfortable for them that they label that feeling as being unsafe and thus they need protection from anyone saying it. It must be hard having such a fragile mental state.

But as posters often say on here, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean that they are not capable of being harmful to others. If my normal default courtesy to strangers is not acceptable, if my respect and professionalism towards my colleagues and clients is not acceptable, if my care and considerations towards my friends and family are not acceptable - well tough shit. I’m done with the emotional blackmail.

I've also seen 'allies' in posts on this board claim that all TW are gay (as in attracted to men not as in regard themselves as lesbian), that taking female hormones makes it impossible to get an errection, that only TW who have had full surgery want to access female spaces, that all TW are small and weak, that no TW would ever get changed in front of women because they all have dysmorphia and various other reasons why women should be OK with men in their spaces. But as these 'facts' are all demonstrably untrue so I can only assume that a lot of people are wildly uninformed about the reality of what constitutes a TW i.e. any man who says so.

Research suggested around a third of the public thought 'trans woman' meant an actual born woman.

I somehow managed to get to the grand old age of nearly 50 before I became aware that people used the word gender as anything other than a polite euphemism for sex. It just didn’t come up in the circles I moved in which did not include many gender studies type people (sorry that’s the only way I can describe it). I was vaguely aware that my very woke sister had weird ideas about sex and gender but I always assumed that sexual politics began and ended with feminism versus the patriarchy. Wow was I confused when the trans thing erupted.

Once I got my head around that (and it took some doing) I haven’t changed my mind at all. Sex is real, gender is made up nonsense. I don’t really care about how people dress or present themselves, I’m sorry for people in mental distress - but single sex spaces are where it begins and ends for me. Women are vulnerable to men at a population level, women need protection and protected spaces. That’s the bottom line, that’s the hill I will die on. Oh and fetishistic males have no limits when it’s a question of satisfying their compulsive urges. Women have always known this to be true.

I do discuss it with friends and we are all of much the same opinion: live and let live, trans people are free to dress and behave however they want and should not be the targets of bullying - but when they try to insist that everyone else should agree that they actually are the sex they would like to be, that’s going too far. People know that mammals can’t change sex and think the whole "TWAW" mantra is ridiculous.

Everyone I know agrees that transwomen shouldn’t be in women's prisons or women's sports, but not everyone is bothered about toilets.

What we all agree on is that the whole trans thing seems so deeply regressive, based on outdated stereotypes of how men and women "should" look, dress, etc.

The gays and lesbians I know all feel under threat from trans ideologues and think that trans people cannot be gay or lesbian: if a man is sexually attracted to women, he is a straight heterosexual man.

There are quite a lot of comments about blue/green/purple hair etc. among trans supporters and how it’s all a pattern of attention-seeking and desperation to be "different".

I don’t know anyone who approves of telling children they might be in the wrong body, etc.

Oh, and we all agree that India Willoughby is a vile, shallow, not very bright man obsessed with women's appearance, that Jolyon Maugham is a self-promoting bully and that the use of language like "trans erasure" or "trans genocide" is ridiculous.

They can't understand the difference between typical (common) behaviours & stereotypical (expectations) because their whole world view relies on social constructionism which is patently only half of the story.

We don't have any problem understanding any of this. But what we're saying is that a person with a female body is a woman, whatever behaviour she displays, and a person with a male body is a man.

That’s what I meant yeah

Yes, there was a PP on this thread who had come to realise that maybe they were a TERF, but felt the need to clarify 'a kind Terf' .
🙄
As though the rest of us are all arseholes.

Its this weird positioning of logic and reason as 'unkind' that has done so much damage. Some peorple, especially women i think as we are socialised to be 'nice' , cant bear that acknowledhing reality might place them on the 'unkind side'. They will do/say anything to keep up the facade of what they believe is required within their social circle to be still seen as 'nice/ kind'.

I just think it’s so bad that we even need to do these mental gymnastics in this day and age. I find it tiring.

Hi OP

I would be interested in your friendship circles (young, idealistic and liberal) if you have had experience of those folk who have trans identities that you might of struggled with.

I think for a lot of younger people their only real life experience of trans is mostly either:

a) quirky girls who like anime, septum, pretty harmless on T, possibly on the spectrum so can be rather serious and can be sometimes hard not to offend.

b) slightly spindly TW who us olds would probably have thought were gay men. Quite art schooly.

c) NBs often girls but sometimes boys who then step stone into trans usually in their teens

I think when you are young and trying to form a self identity you try really hard to give space to others to form theirs. In someways, that latitude seems laudable but sadly the reality is that by making the self discovery spectrum so broad it also allows less desirable behaviours into the fold.

“Be kind” can end up feeling like self-harm when someone crosses a personal boundary you might hold and everyone else seems to laud it.

That is what did it for me. That I wasn’t able to have my own differing ideas about how the world could be run. I also do tend to think in terms of trade offs:- one decision usually results in a negative trade off for another group.

The red line for me was trading off same sex attraction as a catch-all that included what I could only define as a subset of men who identified as women. It just seemed utterly bonkers. The celebration of those lesbian ided men by Stonewall was crazy to me.

I think we are usually all live and let live until we come across people who are seriously taking the piss. At that point, it is hard to unsee the absurdity of the TWAW position.

While, I have met some lovely considered and sane transpeople, it was hard for me not to notice that a fair proportion of others had some serious mental health conditions that didn’t seem to be being treated.

Sex absolutely does exist and in a measurable and easily definable way. It has always existed and it always will as long as we are in bodies on Planet Earth.

Sex is binary. There are males and there are females. The word we use for adult females in english is 'woman'. The word we use for adult males, in english, is 'man'. An infant or junior female is a 'girl'; an infant or junior male is a 'boy'

'Gender' is a word that has been used in the U.S.A as a polite euphemism for 'Sex' - and this is where the confusion started.

Queer Theorists such as Judith Butler came up with the concept of a 'gender identity'. This basically referred to the stereotypes or personality traits typically associated with each sex. If people wanted either to reject the strereotypes associated with their sex, or alternatively embrace those associated with the opposite sex they could 'identify' as that other 'gender'.

To most people what is being referred to as 'gender' is really just an individual's personality characteristics and preferences, and we are all a mixture of characteristics; plus there is a huge cross over of characteristics between the sexes.

Sex matters though......and whether or not we go on to have children or not our body is either one that has XX chromosomes or it has XY chromosomes ( there are some disorders of sexual development - but at root, even then 99% of people with DSDs are either male or female).

Our chromosomal blueprint has repercusions and consequences for us at the physical and social level. Females tend to be smaller and less muscular than males, plus there are a myriad of other structural physical differences between the sexes. Males also tend to have a different quality of sex drive - programmed in a different way to that of females.

These differences matter, especially for females in certain types of situation in which they are more vulnerable to predatory male behaviour; or when pregnant; or when nursing young children; or when engaged with certain types of physical activity; or when naked or undressing. This is why we have sex based protections and exemptions, and some sex based categories.

Males are not female, even if they are 'feminine'; and females are not male, even if 'masculine'. Feminine gay men are not women, and butch/masc women are not men.

I am interested to know if this thread is helpful to you @Schallern ? I haven't read all the responses but in answer to your original q, I talk about this subject to friends, family and colleagues (medical) and have met with similar views to mine, where they have given the matter any thought. Some have expressed surprise that I am willing to admit to my views, although they share them, and hopefully I have empowered them to be more explicit and less fearful. These are: that women do not become men (and vv) by dressing in a stereotypical manner for the other sex; that taking hormones does not alter your underlying sex; that the evidence for 'transitioning' being a positive thing in someone's life is weak to non-existent and that the harms can be very significant (particularly to children and young adults) and are underplayed.

I treat trans-identifying people (both friends and patients) in exactly the same way that I treat anyone else - as individuals - and use the name they prefer. I do my utmost to avoid pronouns because I think this causes creates an atmosphere of untruth.

The pressing question is what, therefore, is 'gender' - apart from a performance or display of culturally coded stereotypes?

Younger people have been brought up to think we all have 'a gender' whereas for those a bit older we all know it is a relatively recently introduced term ( aside from 'gendered' forms in languages such as French). People have always experimented with self expression and tried to push against/rebelled against their parent's/society's cultural boundaries. Only now is it being referred to as 'gender'.

I think the vast majority of 'normies' think people who believe they are trans should be able to present as they wish, shouldn't be discriminated because of that and should have the same rights as everyone else.

But no one can change sex and therefore, treating someone as if they actually are the opposite sex, is an extraordinary course of action. Unfortunately one that has also been very detrimental to women's rights.

It seems to me that this is where a sensible, fact-based common sense based view of the world gets you to.

I can only assume that the people who parrot 'TWAW' have no critical thinking skills and/or are so indoctrinated by their tribe that they cannot engage with reality.