Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Taking a step back, I wonder if in twenty years’ time HR professionals will look back at the time when “we allowed all those weird special interest networks” and shake their heads; “what on earth were they thinking?”

Witness has been handed a copy.
J has everyone got it
AL do you have two bits or just one
ED all stapled together
AL larger starts with email from witness, your email 5 Dec 2023, to David Underwood, Caroline (?) both at Environmental Agency, directed to them because AM employee of Environ Agency
ED yes
AL and why did you send to Cabinet Office ED this is one of three emails about the behaviour of SEEN members
AL this is about AM and only sent to DEFRA because of shared HR function
ED yes
AL a complaint about En Ag employee, so matter for them
ED yes
AL if anything to come of this it was for his employer to deal with, that would be En Ag.
ED yes
AL your email you were asking for things to happen which would affect his employment, asking for him to be suspended
ED asked for him to be suspended while i/x going on

AL your email you were asking for things to happen which would affect his employment, asking for him to be suspended
ED asked for him to be suspended while i/x going on

They have no shame.

Why would someone need to be suspended just because she had raised "a concern"? The fact is she raised a malicious complaint and demanded that someone be suspended on account of it.

The definition of harrassment.

Oh here we are, the “we disagree with what GCs think about sex so comparing them to racists is okay because we have decided their purpose is solely to harm trans people.”

As I said at the end if the last thread, there’s a lot of this nonsense about. Getting people to cut it out and deal with the actual beliefs really is the only sensible way to deal with philosophical disagreements.

(eta - commenting on the TT transcript, not the poster I’m quoting I should point out!)

So the fact that GC position is WORIADS is some sort of gateway drug. Now that SEEN is allowed everyone will be allowed.

So they expect to have the authority to be the arbiter, never mind that it has been decided that it GC is WORIADS?

They are trying not just to claim that because GC is WORIADS but as a result it is only a matter of time before all manner of things that are not WORIADS are treated as WORIADS.

And, key to this claim, that DEFRA following the law is indirect harassment and creating a hostile environment because of a court of law decided GC was WORIADS there is nothing to stop everything that is not WORIADS becoming WORIADS.

I mean you can think that, sure, but trying to sue your employer for not acting on that batshit crazy idea is batshit crazy.

But here we are.

Wims, joking around with you all makes this bearable because I'm actually pretty horrified at ED and the amount of mean spirited and vindictive energy she expends in her answers.

J you were chair of AG, who would make decision that AM would be suspended chair of SEEN, does DEFRA have that power
ED I think yes it would
AL for a x-gov network, isn't it the Cabinet Office
ED they are our handlers so to speak, they are the people we would go to with network issues.
AL trying to understand why it's a matter for DEFRA when AM is an employee of En Ag and it's a x-gov network.
ED I was saying I wanted AM to be removed as co-chair of DEFRA SEEN while he's under i/x. I'm asking DEFRA staff to do that.

ED IMHO is a nasty, spiteful vindictive piece of work.

DEFRA were refusing to do her bidding.

Can i ask a question? What was the objection to the ‘Invisible Women’ discussion?

Was it simply because it had the word ‘woman’ in the title??

There seems to be so much evidence of harassment towards AM and Elspeth here. Completely backwards.

Typical of the eternally self righteous crusaders on the RSOH.

too stupid to foresee that the racism comparison made by the a:gender person might come up in the x exam.
When they are busy painting every utterance of a SEEN member as hateful, but don't foresee any scrutiny coming their way.

She had a network of spies and informers.

ED I don't want inside information, just trying to find out what stage things are at

I think this is what happens if you spend your time group catastrophising and looking for anything that you can find and present as "evidence" that they are all out to get you. They have no idea of the amount of hubris they are demonstrating nor how their actions harrass and bully other because it's being framed as an existential crisis and they have to go to such lengths to sustain it.
If they calmed down and stopped framing it that way they'd have to abandon something that they are emotionally dependant on, people will keep repeating patterns that damage them if the alternative is something they cannot bear to contemplate, comfort is taken from what they know even if it hurts them in the long run.

AL point on consequences on employment, turn to page number [more difficulty with page numbers]
ED I have paginated pages
AL you'll see that only goes so far, then back to page 1, and then there's a letter then back to page 1. I'm pleased we've all navigated that.
AL you've asked for information about what is happening,
ED I don't want inside information, just trying to find out what stage things are at
AL you want a disciplinary and consequences against AM
ED I want an i/x and then if found guilty, for there to be consequences

My note: found guilty? Surely you mean if gross misconduct is found? Workplace investigations are not courts of law.

AL you want a disciplinary and consequences against AM
ED I want an i/x and then if found guilty, for there to be consequences

ED I want an i/x and then if found guilty, for there to be consequences

I expect hung drawn and quartered wouldn't be good enough for them.

Because it says women are ignored as a separate category from men in design/ergonomics etc., the 'standard' is the male body e.g. height, reach, handspan etc.
That's v undermining to transfolk.

I was in an online women in tech group that was blown up by a TW who had conniptions when it was suggested we discuss this very relevant book - uncaring, transphobic, cruel, thoughtless...

Well isn't she just lovely.

AL now your letter of complaint, in that pack of documents, its largely comprised of various X posts, from an account that I've asked C about, did you provide these to the C
Let me ask again. Go to page 12, an example of posts from Andi Abides accounts, you're saying here are things posted that are objectionable.
ED yes
AL did you provide to ST
ED no, not to ST
AL ST not copied on this, didn't take part in any i/x did ST
ED no, I don't think so
AL so ST has these posts in her claim, I think it's because you provided these to ST
ED inaudible

AL did you provide to ST
ED no, not to ST
AL ST not copied on this, didn't take part in any i/x did ST
ED no, I don't think so
AL so ST has these posts in her claim, I think it's because you provided these to ST ED inaudible

She's clearly lying and she is in collusion with ST to cover this up...hence all of the 'facial expresions' earlier on yesterday for which she had to be asked to refrain.

Surely ED means when found guilty?
I can't imagine that in ED world anything else could be contemplated.

Ooh the thot plickens