Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Thanks @myladydisdainisyetliving - that's reassuring, I'm not watching live and I hope that's how it pans out.

I've lost my faith a bit since Big Sond and also the Maria Kelly judgment.

I wonder how many people with DSDs work at DEFRA? Swyers Syndrome is bloody rare, my fag-packet arithmetic suggests maybe 800 in the whole country? Trans people, though, I daresay, are over-represented, statistically.

True! But at least I can do other things while catching up 😀

Do you think their parents thought about that initial?

I don't think the case us about whether DEFRA was unfair to the claimant. What makes you think that?

It is about whether the Rs harassed and created a hostile working environment for those with the PC of GRA because, basically, they didn't a) remove SEEN and b) didn't spend unlimited resources on the demands of complainants.

That's why NC is asking ED about her role in the claim. ED doesn't have the protected characteristic of GRA so couldn't bring the claim herself so, NC is suggesting, she has proxied the claim through ST and PQ (now no longer part of the action).

She is establishing that the demands made of the Rs by the claimants were vexatious and unreasonable by demonstrating the 'one rule for me and one rule for thee' mode of operation - why is why the paid role of SEEN is relevant but is not by any means all that matters.

She is also demonstrating the vexatious nature of the claim by pointing out that there were significant unreasonable cost implications to their continuing demands and actions. If you can't work for 6 months, but still get paid, because just the idea that people disagree with your point of view is too much this is not a reasonable position and so the claim of harassment or hostile working environment can't stand if the Cs position for claiming that is unreasonable.

I think ED is the only one, she mentioned it in her witness statement, how pleased they were to have an intersex person.

Sounded like a trophy collection.

My train to london was cancelled & I was gifted the luxury of free time, in the warm sun & gentle breeze, relaxed & catching up on this thread.

im not usually able to follow these on mn in real time (though I often have the court itself playing while I wfh - but not this time.

it’s been a hoot! You are all fantastic 🙏🏼

There's only 2 of us so I usually make a large batch at a time. You can't really get scones or crumpets or teacakes or stuff here so when I do make them, I need to cover my bases.

Yes - and they remove him from the a:Gender network because he's detransitioned.

But it's OK for Tempest to be in breastfeeding and menopause groups?

In my opinion, networks for other protected beliefs such as Anti-Zionism, disagreement with Critical Race Theory and thinking same sex relations are inherently sinful...

Would these not be classified as NOT WORIADS though?

As far as I understand it religious belief night be PC but expressing views that are deemed homophobic would not automatically receive legal protection in the way she seems to be suggesting.

It must be - Grainger criteria - 'worthy of respect in a democratic society WORIADS to be protected and UK EATS have clarified that a religious belief will not be protected if it: denies the rights of others, promotes discrimination or hatred or is fundamentally inconsistent with human dignity or conflicts with the fundamental rights of others.

So that's why the TRAs here are trying to frame their claim of harassment and hostile working environment in the face of SEEN's existence as being because SEEN denies the rights of others (it doesn't), promotes discrimination (it doesn't) etc etc.

So for the claim of harassment to stand up they must show the evidence that SEEN is doing this and Rs have not stopped them doing this.

But they are trying to take it further by asserting that because SEEN, although WORIADS, is allowed to exist it will result in NON WORIADs networks being given carte blanche, which doesn't really make any sense at all.

ED I'm not. Why wouldn't they set up? Why wouldn't they follow the blueprint of SEEN and get a tribunal to say their belief is appropriate,

Running very late with catching up, but this is a batshit idea that GC people just "got a tribunal" to say their belief is appropriate. She makes it sound like something that can simply be ordered from Amazon. 🙄

'Cleo joined HMRC and the Civil Service in 2018, where they quickly managed to get themselves involved with D&I work.'

It's not a parody, by chance?

Not sure the parents are necessarily responsible for the name.
Might even be self-inflicted and intentional? 🤔

ED: aG is best kept secret in the Civil Service, nobody knows we exist

Funny, in that case, that she was trumpeting the vital role played by her network in helping her members during lockdown on this CS blog in 2021?

civilservice.blog.gov.uk/2021/05/12/making-a-brilliant-civil-service-together-national-day-for-staff-networks/

So we know who the protagonist is and who the patsies are, so who is behind the funding, ordinarily i would no care so much but i wonder who her connections are to.

OOh thanks for the beatiful badge @MyrtleLion. I shall wear it gladly (was going to write 'with pride' but that's been tainted now!).
Now I just need a month allocated when I can blow it up and put it in my window.
Only just caught up. Once again, HUGE thanks for all the copying, pasting and commentary.

@ProfLargofesse Being unfair to the claimant is a shorthand for "created a hostile working environment for those with the PC of GRA". How much resources have been wasted on this by the Civil Service is not an issue for the court. Referring to "taxpayer funding" is unnecessary and a mistake, over emphasis on the Cabinet Office and agender is not relevant to whether Defra made "reasonable adjustments".

Yes me too.

I'm wondering about the 'that sealed it for me' response and where it came in the chronology. It suggests there was a plan that had been taking shape about taking this to ET and that the final decision was made in this moment.

Perhaps the manager who had supported their appeal and made recommendations had understood they were making a threat? Find in our favour or we take you to ET and she caved given the huge implications? Maybe she thought that making the changes they requested was less of a biggie because she didn't either understand the law or didn't want to find herself caught up in an ET.

It suggests to me that there was a funder early on in the process as ST has made it clear he had limited resources (£60 CBT sessions being a big demand - although that's not really proof of limited resources as he might just be exorcised by the fact that if fell to him, not to someone else, to pay and speaks more of his sense of entitlement than resources).

I think if ST is vulnerable, not for the reasons he claims but because the Stonewalling of the world around him has brought him here, then this is very exploitative.

murasaki · Today 16:36

And my granny, re Bletchley Park.

Cripes, we have <6 degrees of separation thing! Mind did too, but we only found out when the priest spoke about it, at her funeral. I've posted about it before.

I will admit I read no further than that in the article!

@ProfLargofesse
45. I do not think it’s unlikely that a “same sex relations are sinful” network would try to form

Is that the part of the x-exam about Emma's WS where the judge said he thought there was a "rogue not" inserted? If so, he seems to not get the point of ED's insane theory that if SEEN is allowed to exist, all manner of hateful groups would also start forming networks, so to prevent that SEEN has to be shut down.

Apparently DEFRA has cut 15% of its staff since 2024.

Is ED's position still a paid role?

Me too, it was her brother who brought it up at her funeral, cue wtf from her son, DIL and grandchildren....

Does Cleo have time to do any work? Sounds as though they might be hard pushed to actually deal with anything relating to their actual job description having carved themselves a nice little niche of non work business.

Some of those things address whether it was reasonable for the claimant to have felt harassed and are part of “the other circumstances of the case” that the panel have to take into account (EA2010 s26(4))