Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 4

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Well exactly, I've learned this over the last two days. It's astonishing. She's not behaving like an adult.

Oops, I must be thinking of someone else.🤭

It's more than a hang-up. It must have been just as unhealthy for ED to find out how pleased the Cabinet Office were that they'd found someone with a DSD/intersex condition to run their a:gender group, as it was for ST to be affirmed. ED's condition had given her so much social capital at work in this DEI stuff and she wouldn't keep it private because her super-status in a:gender depended on it.

The judge doesn't want to have to think about the lesbians while he's in public.

Oh how inclusive. Your Granny can join but not someone who transitions from male to female to male? Surely they are the best transitioners around since they do it so regularly?

Image of Emma Dunn in link.

https://www.civilservice.lgbt/news/2020/07/07/emma-dunn-allyship

Got excited by the existence of that pronunciation map but it, typically, ignores Northern Ireland.

<sulks stroppily>

Dang that disappeared laughter emoji

One could say that erasing lesbianism as a sex based term - and silencing and hiding all the terrible homosexuals who won't get with the programme and enjoy
straight sex - is the purpose of the very special male 'lesbian'.

But it's not erasure or anything wrong, because we don't know what those people think, and they don't have feelings like real humans do anyway.

The 'they don't feel like real people do' is straight out of the mouths of slave owners arguing with abolitionists in the 1860s.

Always the way - we don't get scones or womens rights or FWS here. Its rubbish.

From TT:

NC: He points out that surely he is - still needs hormones, still has bodily discomfort, shd be eligible
ED: but he wasn't. Had made public statements that no longer trans.

NC: p234 (int) - relationship DEFRA & a:Gender.
NC: Pride Network, LGBT network, aGender - all reported as v concerned about SEEN.
J: What is the document?
NC: It's Natural England Trans Update - I think a regular publication, I understand it was on their Sharepoint.

NC: It talks of two meetings - a:Gender one of them - must be you?
ED: I don't know which meeting they are talking about
NC: p511 same bundle

He seems a bit... squeamish?

He doesn't want to think about lesbians with dicks. He doesn't mind actual lesbians. He's not genocidal homophobic Emma.

But given the nature of the claim there is a point where DEFRA can't keep responding to vexatious complaints and demands of a;gender and its allies because it is so costly. At what point does the claim of harassment and hostile environment become an enablement of vexatious resource wasting?

The point NC is establishing within the framework of resource and cost is that the complaints are, indeed, vexatious, and so why should the resources be spent to the degree they are on dealing with and managing them? If there is no line between cost and the unreasonableness of the complaints and the degree by which those complaints are further amplified then every reasonable management of complaints within what should be a fairly limited budget becomes harassment, potentially.

It also means that the resources used up/ exploited by vexatious claims are not available for reasonable complaints. Or the budget becomes even more excessive in order to make sure that they are.

Public funding is open to vexatious litigants as we see so much with this line of argument, so the claims of harrassment can't sit outside an understanding of the cost, ie it can't be ignored or dismissed as political because it is a question of how much avoiding the prospect of vexatious litigations enables and how that enabling is not a good use of public funds.

Lastly, they refer to ‘gender identity’ as a ‘violent political movement’ which is extreme and disrespectful language, and is absolutely not politically impartial.

but throwing around ‘genocide’ and ‘fascist’ is perfectly normal and respectful and not the least bit hyberbolic.

NC: email chain - read from the bottom. Your aG email to Ritchie Herron, a detransitioner - you tell him he must leave aGender.
ED: No, we asked him why he wanted to be member when not eligible, so we had to remove him bcs did consider self trans

😱

And yet ST can joint a breastfeeding network and a menopause support network.

a:Gender - taking the P out of equity

NC: True that many on the side that say sex is not binary and is mutable, lots are very angry about FWS supreme court?
ED: Don't know
NC: Didn't you do a survey?
ED: Perhaps when I was off?
J: Was there one?
NC: I was told there had been so, surprised ED didn't know.
ED: I don't think we did a formal survey - we might have invited comment, temperature check, but not aware of formal survey.
NC: I suggested that lots of people not on the GC sided would be angry
ED: the inclusive feminism side? Yes of course cross.
NC: And lots of organising - in the unions etc - how to get around it
ED: Yes lots of activity.

So the TRAs can organise and talk about how to get around women having rights (breaking the law), and that's appropriate in the workplace, but if anyone GC pushes back on that, that'd be inappropriate for the workplace, invalidating, literal genocide.

Righto.

I wonder how she'd react if someone said GI doesn't exist because it's completely made up bollocks. 🤯

From TT:

NC: This is one of many pages of the Natural England Stonewall WEI feedback.
NC: Says, great that NE had a member doing a TDOR event. Stonewall applauding NE for aG event?
ED: 2023 - yes, they say that's good.

NC: p771 (int)
NC: Yammer announcement of a transawareness week - says aG will be doing an inclusive language event. That happened?
ED: Assume so yes - we are asked to do presentations the whole time, we do them on request.

NC: You've done a lot of civil service presentation all across, on inclusive language?
ED: Probably not into 3 figures, rather less than that.

And yet, surely growing as female, there must have been times and experiences where she was glad of single sex spaces, and times where she was glad that men could not follow? Whether acknowledged or not, as a young person experiencing life as a female, she’d have benefited from societal rules treating sex as binary. It’s as if everything before she found out that she had a very rare DSD no longer exists in her memory.

I thought so too. Had to get my Gaydar re-callibrated as a result.
She's not. Regrettably, might I add, on a personal note..😏

ED as gatekeeper (another way to justify her salary)

[my bold]
NC: He points out that surely he is - still needs hormones, still has bodily discomfort, shd be eligible
ED: but he wasn't. Had made public statements that no longer trans.

Well we know that anyone who questions the one true faith is banished and shunned. Same with Keira Bell.

My TT:

NC: p816 main
ED: [reading] oh my word
NC: We see there follow-up email from session you held, with slide pack, yours?
ED: Looks like it yes

NC: Attended by many v senior ppl, on your survey that we looked at?
ED: Yes I think mtg of diversity & inclusion heads from across govt - think they invited SEEN to a meeting so then, to be even handed they invited us.

ED: So yes, the slide pack is about the survey, in relation to bullying & harrassment policeies.