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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3

996 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 10:12

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5548369-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-2

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
EdithStourton · Yesterday 21:10

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · Yesterday 19:49

JKR has a view on the male menopause

nitter.net/jk_rowling/status/2072330308335051042#m

I bloody love JKR.

RogueFemale · Yesterday 21:18

Saw this on X/nitter.

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3
Hyenana · Yesterday 21:23

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · Yesterday 19:49

JKR has a view on the male menopause

nitter.net/jk_rowling/status/2072330308335051042#m

My favorite part from this x-exam:

NC: men never ovulate
ST: agree TW don't ovulate

Did ST just say TWAM? He should start a case against himself for transphobia!
(Seeing as TT is not necessarily verbatim I would have liked to be there to have listened to it myself...)

NebulousSupportPostcard · Yesterday 21:29

MyAmpleSheep · Yesterday 18:56

#NoInterruptatronWithoutTheT

#InterruptatronsWontWheesht

Hyenana · Yesterday 21:33

After all the discussions on this thread today on whether NC is possibly too confrontational with the judge, I just saw a post that called her a "worthless handmaiden" for obeying the judge's pronoun orders 😖
https://nitter.net/AlessandraAster/status/2072281328679100923#m

BeMoreBear · Yesterday 21:40

Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 19:09

😄

Those are some seriously angry sheep!

MyAmpleSheep · Yesterday 21:44

Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 19:09

😄

Oh! Those are for me! Thank you!

BeMoreBear · Yesterday 21:44

ProfLargofesse · Yesterday 20:20

I think it was a jesty witticism

I didn't get the joke, shows how gullible I am! I still want to know what the final Q was.

WFTCHTJ · Yesterday 21:46

Yeah, but Alessandra thinks that everyone should do things the way she wants, and they're traitors to the cause if they don't.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · Yesterday 21:47

Caught up, pesky work got in the way.

Not sure what to say about this afternoon's testimony other than when pressed ST seems to answer a different question, generate word salad, claim there are two instances of evidence that completely support his point of view 'somewhere in the bundle', generate word game half truth answers or become emotionally aggravated.

Selective amnesia seems to be ST's super power. I do wonder, if you live in such a fragile state, do you end up remembering only your perception of the harm that is being done to you and not the actual events. This might explain why ST remembers precisely when harm was done but when pressed for the evidence becomes confused as none actually exists.

At times he seems to think that it is OK for him to advise the judge what to do or answer counsel's questions with other questions. In the transcript he seemed really disrespectful again and again - why was this allowed?

ST: Judge this is too far.
J: Do you disagree with the Q
ST: Yes

As far as I could see from the transcript ST's counsel made no attempt to object to this question - ST made a direct appeal to the judge

Observers - did ST appear to be building a special relationship with the judge through today?

On a more positive note, saw a humming bird moth in the garden this evening flitting from bloom to bloom, what an amazing creature

BeMoreBear · Yesterday 21:47

RogueFemale · Yesterday 21:18

Saw this on X/nitter.

Not going to comment on the rest of it, but they used the wrong 'compliment'. Peasants.

NebulousSupportPostcard · Yesterday 21:55

BeMoreBear · Yesterday 21:44

I didn't get the joke, shows how gullible I am! I still want to know what the final Q was.

It's in the TT thread on twitter, but I must have found it unremarkable as I have no recall of it now!

Hyenana · Yesterday 22:05

WFTCHTJ · Yesterday 21:46

Yeah, but Alessandra thinks that everyone should do things the way she wants, and they're traitors to the cause if they don't.

I don't quite understand what happened with her - I remember her being part of a 'clarify the EA vs. repeal the GRA' discussion that I thought was just about finding the best strategy, then I didn't follow her closely and nowadays I see her claiming to have been persecuted by Sex Matters.
I remember she had a conflict with Andrew Doyle at one point but I feel I'm missing half of the story.

NotAtMyAge · Yesterday 22:12

Hyenana · Yesterday 21:33

After all the discussions on this thread today on whether NC is possibly too confrontational with the judge, I just saw a post that called her a "worthless handmaiden" for obeying the judge's pronoun orders 😖
https://nitter.net/AlessandraAster/status/2072281328679100923#m

Alessandra is a very odd woman. I cannot believe we were mutual follows on Twitter a few years ago. She was then banned and when the ban was lifted it was as though she'd had a personality transplant. So hardline and blocking erstwhile followers for the slightest hint of wrongthink.

BeMoreBear · Yesterday 22:14

NebulousSupportPostcard · Yesterday 21:55

It's in the TT thread on twitter, but I must have found it unremarkable as I have no recall of it now!

I'm not on Twix 😕ST really didn't want to answer it, almost begged the judge, so if anyone knows what the question was, however innocuous, I'd be grateful.

edited spelling

SqueakyDinosaur · Yesterday 22:16

I thought the Q was whether ST felt he should pay back his sick pay?

BeMoreBear · Yesterday 22:19

SqueakyDinosaur · Yesterday 22:16

I thought the Q was whether ST felt he should pay back his sick pay?

A few people say now that that was a joke. I can't imagine NC used a joke as her last Q, given how tetchy the judge was, so it must've been the posters joke.

SqueakyDinosaur · Yesterday 22:20

I would like to thank the denizens of this thread. I have had an absolute shitter of a day - longhaul flight cancelled and then every possible trope of appalling customer service, starting with a proposed reroute 48 hours later with a tight transfer, ending in being dumped at the wrong hotel. You have kept me (mostly) sane. And although I'm looking forward to the trip, I will miss the real-time updates and conversations on here!

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · Yesterday 22:25

BeMoreBear · Yesterday 22:19

A few people say now that that was a joke. I can't imagine NC used a joke as her last Q, given how tetchy the judge was, so it must've been the posters joke.

From tribunal tweets

NC: My final Q then.
NC: "Bullies trying to shut down a primarily women's organisation, acting for women's rights" is a fair way to describe you and your allies' conduct isn't it.
ST: No this is about the workplace, and how trans ppl treated there.
NC: And this claim is the same. Example of EDW and AM.
ST: No, my right to bring after grievance failed.
NC: [missed]
ST: Judge this is too far.
J: Do you disagree with the Q
ST: Yes

So it does not appear in this record

TrainedByTheBiddyMafia · Yesterday 22:28

RogueFemale · Yesterday 21:18

Saw this on X/nitter.

There’s something really tragic about an adult, especially an adult of more mature years, adopting the name of an anime character/larping full time, and creepy when it’s a male larping as one that looks like a girl (I understand the character is supposed to be in her 20s but is under 5ft in height so 🤷🏻‍♀️)

JaneDoeKeepsReceipts · Yesterday 22:41

President of Employment Tribunals
Complaint regarding the conduct of Employment Judge S.D. Robertson

Case: Samantha Tempest v Rural Payments Agency & Defra (with SEEN as Intervenor)
Tribunal Reference:
Hearing Dates: 23 June 2026 in Leeds

Dear Judge Barry Clarke,

I am writing to make a formal complaint about the conduct of Employment Judge S.D. Robertson in the above employment tribunal proceedings.

Summary of Concerns

I believe the judge’s actions during the hearing demonstrated bias, procedural unfairness, and an overreach that compromised the principles of open justice, freedom of expression, and the right to effective advocacy.

You will be aware that Judicial Conduct in Leeds has recently been investigated in following a U-turn by a judicial watchdog. This related to 10 complaints, spanning a seven-year period, made against Philip Lancaster, an employment tribunal judge in Leeds.

The Judicial Conduct Investigations Office (JCIO) had previously dismissed most of the allegations against Lancaster without examining them. We trust that you will address these most serious matters, especially in light of the failure to address inappropriate behaviour in this tribunal setting very recently.

Specifically:
Incorrect and Unnecessary Decisions on Pronouns / Compelled Speech
The judge directed that specific pronouns or terminology be used when referring to the claimant (Samantha Tempest), including in the advocacy of Naomi Cunningham (counsel for the intervenor SEEN) and her client Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley. This amounted to compelling speech and required the intervenor’s legal team to adopt language they reasonably believe to be inaccurate or contrary to their case. Such a direction interferes with counsel’s ability to present their client’s position honestly and effectively, and raises serious Article 10 ECHR (freedom of expression) concerns.

In particular Elspeth as a witness was ordered to use the pronouns they/them. This is in express breach of the EBTT, and in any event it is nonsensical to use plural pronouns for a man who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Tempest identifies as a transwoman and non binary pronouns only serve to confuse the witness without satisfying Tempests wish to be addressed by female pronouns.

Controlling and Restricting Naomi Cunningham’s Advocacy
The judge’s interventions and rulings limited or controlled the manner in which Ms Cunningham could cross-examine or make submissions on behalf of the intervenor. This included restrictions on ordinary descriptive language regarding sex and gender, which are central to the issues in dispute. These restrictions appear to have gone beyond what is necessary for the orderly conduct of proceedings and instead favoured one party’s preferred narrative.

Appearance of Bias
The cumulative effect of these rulings creates a reasonable perception that the tribunal was not impartial. In a case involving sensitive issues of sex, gender, and protected beliefs, it is essential that the judge maintains strict neutrality and does not compel parties (or their representatives) to affirm contested beliefs through language.

Why This Matters
Judges have a duty under the Equal Treatment Bench Book and broader judicial principles to remain neutral and to avoid compelling parties to use language that engages their protected beliefs (as recognised in cases such as Forstater).

Requiring counsel to use particular pronouns or descriptors in this context risks turning the tribunal into an instrument of compelled speech rather than a neutral arbiter of facts and law.I understand that judicial independence is important and that case management decisions are generally a matter for the judge. However, when such decisions engage fundamental rights and create an appearance of unfairness or pre-determination, they warrant independent scrutiny. I refer you to the following supporting material:

Tribunal Tweets or live reporting of the relevant exchanges
Any transcripts or notes of the hearing
Public reports on the case

I respectfully request that this complaint be investigated thoroughly and that appropriate action be taken. I am happy to provide any further information required.

Yours faithfully,
[Your Full Name]

-------

Thoughts? Best examples?

SqueakyDinosaur · Yesterday 22:44

Take out respectfully at the end but otherwise 👌

Hyenana · Yesterday 22:49

BeMoreBear · Yesterday 22:14

I'm not on Twix 😕ST really didn't want to answer it, almost begged the judge, so if anyone knows what the question was, however innocuous, I'd be grateful.

edited spelling

Edited

You don't need a Twix account to read on Nitter
https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

NebulousSupportPostcard · Yesterday 22:51

I have been thinking of making a complaint too, though more around the language complication and consequent unfair burden placed on EWD as an autistic woman. I was reading the sections of the ETBB on disability and autism, but haven't drafted anything yet.

Hyenana · Yesterday 22:58

NotAtMyAge · Yesterday 22:12

Alessandra is a very odd woman. I cannot believe we were mutual follows on Twitter a few years ago. She was then banned and when the ban was lifted it was as though she'd had a personality transplant. So hardline and blocking erstwhile followers for the slightest hint of wrongthink.

So you missed the 'in between' phase as well? I wonder if it is really just her ego being bruised for not getting the recognition she wanted or if she was really treated unfairly by SM? But her current Twix behavior is no argument in her favor.

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