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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hampstead Ponds update today

387 replies

WallaceinAnderland · 04/06/2026 19:25

I'm not sure that this is in line with the law.

They need to label all 3 ponds as mixed sex.

https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/hampstead-heaths-bathing-ponds-to-remain-trans-inclusive-spaces-as-city-corporation-agrees-future-access-policy/

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MyAmpleSheep · 06/06/2026 22:53

theilltemperedamateur · 06/06/2026 21:23

If it is operated to be a service open to the public that restricts itself to women and "trans-women" only and other men are excluded, that's unlawful and wrong. Full stop.

Does this mean you think Swift J was wrong to say that, whilst such arrangements may constitute illegal direct sex-discrimination against men, whether or not they actually do will depend on the facts of the case (because it depends on whether they are treated less favourably overall thereby)?

I disagree that this comment was obiter. He was asked to JR the Interim Update. As part of that, he drew the above conclusion, but did not think it was unreasonable for the Update to retain the reference to direct discrimination against men, because this is a liability risk that providers need to be warned about: they must do a less favourable treatment analysis because, by admitting transwomen, they have lost the protection from liability for sex-discrimination that Schedule 3 would otherwise have conferred.

What do you think will happen to this aspect of the case on appeal?

Does this mean you think Swift J was wrong to say that, whilst such arrangements may constitute illegal direct sex-discrimination against men, whether or not they actually do will depend on the facts of the case (because it depends on whether they are treated less favourably overall thereby)?

I don't think he was wrong - in each case the complainant still has to show the discrimination. But I don't think that's a heavy burden, in the case of a single sex pool. I think I explained above how the reasoning in al-Hijra applies.

Here are some excerpts from that Court of Appeal judgment:

48 ... It was submitted [by Ofsted] that the point can be put on the basis of a comparator, namely (in the case of discrimination against a girl pupil) a boy pupil who can mix with other boy pupils, and (in the case of discrimination against a boy pupil) a girl pupil who can mix with other girl pupils, or it can be advanced without any comparator by simply asking what would have been the position if the girl pupil or the boy pupil did not have the protected characteristic of their sex. It is said that, either way, there is discrimination contrary to any one or all of EA 2010 s. 85(2)(a)(b)(d) and (f). Viewed from the perspective of an individual pupil, in that way, both the girl pupil and the boy pupil are treated less favourably than the other.

47. We agree with those submissions of Ofsted

  1. Furthermore, we do not accept the School’s argument that, whether looked at from an individual or group perspective, separate but equal treatment by reason of gender cannot be unlawful discrimination even if it is detrimental. The way Mr Oldham put it in the course of his submission was there cannot be unlawful discrimination if both the complainant and the comparator suffer the same detriment even if they would have been treated differently if they were a different sex. The following cases support the rejection of that argument, as does the general principle that the discrimination legislation should be given a wide and purposive interpretation rather than a narrow one:

I could go on.

SomeGarlic · 07/06/2026 00:32

Al-Hijra really hung on the school being co-ed but separate, though. It was basically two single-sex schools on one site (ETA: from description, I haven't seen a floor plan!) There are loads of single-sex schools, no deprivation of 'socialisation' with the opposite sex as that is not a reasonable expectation of a single-sex school. Al-Hijra lost because it called itself co-ed.

What7Words · 07/06/2026 09:19

Mmmnotsure · 06/06/2026 17:05

Perhaps that's because they realise it is important to women to have a single-sex space that they can swim in all year round. Oh, wait…

Or, they realise it’s important for men to have a single sex space and a mixed sex space ie the women’s pond, they can swim in all year round, and they didn’t consider women at all.

Edited for clarity

ItsCoolForCats · 09/06/2026 13:55

The Ponds came up on the Nicky Campbell show today, in a discussion about the Public Sector Equality Duty.

Fantastic comments from a caller called Rebecca 👏🏻

The caller after her though 🤦🏻‍♀️

From about 45 minutes in:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002xg9v?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Keeptoiletssafe · 09/06/2026 14:15

Well done Rebecca! Of course Hampstead know no one actually likes this - that’s why they are having to spend a lot of money making everything private.

Silverbirchleaf · 09/06/2026 14:19

ItsCoolForCats · 09/06/2026 13:55

The Ponds came up on the Nicky Campbell show today, in a discussion about the Public Sector Equality Duty.

Fantastic comments from a caller called Rebecca 👏🏻

The caller after her though 🤦🏻‍♀️

From about 45 minutes in:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002xg9v?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Just listened to Rebecca. If you’re here on mn, you’re my today’s heroine! You gave your arguments clearly, factually and relayed it to the main debate of the day. Didn’t listen to much of the following caller, but she was a bit hysterical, wasn’t she Loved how Rebecca responded to her calmly and factually. Team Rebecca!

KnottyAuty · 09/06/2026 14:28

The caller after Rebecca - Sophie - was quite excited! Sophie spoke a great deal and was quite forceful - saying simply EDI = "don't be jerk". Whilst simultaneously sounding like a jerk!

ItsCoolForCats · 09/06/2026 14:36

Yes, Rebecca was amazing. I especially liked her point about how you could not imagine an organisation doing a public consultation on whether to comply with the law for any other protected characteristic.

Sophie had a right go at the caller that was on after her as well 🤣

NotInMyyName · 09/06/2026 14:51

@KnottyAuty ha ha I agree with your comments on Sophie. I was not persuaded by her lack of logic or a lazy argument based on … what. Im not sure.

Thanks for the link @Itscoolforcats

ScrollingLeaves · 09/06/2026 15:03

Sophie’s “ just don’t be a jerk” - is actually very apt in light of what Rebecca said about the women who would have to self -exclude from the [so called] “ladies” pond so that male “ladies” can use it - though not in the way Sophie thinks.

KnottyAuty · 09/06/2026 15:32

ScrollingLeaves · 09/06/2026 15:03

Sophie’s “ just don’t be a jerk” - is actually very apt in light of what Rebecca said about the women who would have to self -exclude from the [so called] “ladies” pond so that male “ladies” can use it - though not in the way Sophie thinks.

The comments on DEI were also interesting. Sophie saying that noone should be upset if they don't get a job and shouldn't question why because it was all on the best person for the job. Then got very heated when talking about how they couldn't get a job because there was no help for them - instead of thinking it might be a problem about their skills?! TBH it all seemed a bit too close to home - weird circular autistic arguments that never make sense and never end. Welcome to my world!

HappilyHarriet · 09/06/2026 18:54

Rebecca was excellent- a model of calm clarity.

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