Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hampstead Ponds update today

306 replies

WallaceinAnderland · Yesterday 19:25

I'm not sure that this is in line with the law.

They need to label all 3 ponds as mixed sex.

https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/hampstead-heaths-bathing-ponds-to-remain-trans-inclusive-spaces-as-city-corporation-agrees-future-access-policy/

OP posts:
Shortshriftandlethal · Today 14:23

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Today 12:44

I've said it before but the CoLC are basically offering a men's pond for the gay men, a women's pond for the womanly men and a mixed pond for the straight men. The 'gay men's pond' is common knowledge in N London. I agree that the G will drop the T the moment the G pond is threatened.

God, yes, especially in the summer months. The gay men won't want women crashing their scene.

WallaceinAnderland · Today 14:25

We get one brief moment of existence

There it is 🙄

OP posts:
Shortshriftandlethal · Today 14:26

soupycustard · Today 12:38

Indeed. So for the 1000th time, will a TRA please explain why trans-identified males won't use the mixed sex pond.
The fact that the offer of 3rd/4th/mixed sex spaces is always ignored makes it crystal clear in my view that these men want access to women.

It is certainly not because they like or identify with women - even as they identify 'as women'. There can be no greater show of disrespect to invade a female only space in this way - especially when you have other spaces available nearby.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Today 14:30

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 14:23

God, yes, especially in the summer months. The gay men won't want women crashing their scene.

Apparently some of them already dislike the trans-identified females 'watching them'.

DialSquare · Today 14:31

I’m contemplating going to one of them. What pond’s occupants will be the most upset with a Bella Emberg lookalike spoiling their fun?!!!

(“spoiling” autocorrected to “soiling” which would be a completely different issue!)

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Today 14:36

@MarieDeGournay there would, in principle, be scope for a strong argument -
what would your old head of chambers make of that, HenriettaSwanLeavitt?
English for 'yeah ok you can argue that but don't expect me to agree with it'😄

Not my head of chambers, I'm afraid, it's Akua Reindorf's. I'm not even legal-adjacent. Though I do think I might have made a half-decent solicitor. In my next life, maybe.

Keeptoiletssafe · Today 14:43

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 14:23

God, yes, especially in the summer months. The gay men won't want women crashing their scene.

There a gay man that designs ‘inclusive’ toilets. He says the most vocal opponents gay men and certain women.

nicepotoftea · Today 14:43

MarieDeGournay · Today 14:16

61. Whether different treatment is also less favourable treatment is, therefore, a qualitative question. In a case where the provision of separate lavatories labelled male and female was materially similar in terms of the extent of the provision, location, and so on, I consider there would, in principle, be scope for a strong argument that a rule or practice that permitted trans women to use the “female” lavatory but required other biological men to use the male lavatory would comprise different but not less favourable treatment on grounds of sex. However, the circumstances of the case would be decisive. (For the purposes of the EA 2010 the lavatory would be mixed-sex, but for the purposes of the Claimants’ submission in this case it would still be labelled “women”.)

I was corrected on another thread when I called this 'unfortunate musings by the judge' because it was skim-read and seized upon and I wished he hadn't said it. It seems he was responding to a specific point so it was just pointless what-if-ery!

there would, in principle, be scope for a strong argument -
what would your old head of chambers make of that, HenriettaSwanLeavitt?
English for 'yeah ok you can argue that but don't expect me to agree with it'😄

But in the toilet scenario isn't it more likely that one would be arguing that it's the lack of single sex provision that causes the discrimination?

theilltemperedamateur · Today 15:07

Swift J was being thorough: since a 'trans-inclusive' service lies outside the Schedule 3 SSEs, it must be examined for sex-discrimination on its own merits, by doing a 'less favourable treatment' analysis.

He sufficiently agreed that there was a potential liability, arising from the different access criteria for the two sexes, to justify including a statement to this effect in the Interim Update. He couldn't rule that there would always be illegal discrimination, because that might depend on the facts of the case.

For example one could argue that the Ponds, taken as a whole, are distinct from Al Hijra in that each user has the choice of two different types of mixed-sex service, rather than being segregated from the other sex.

Intuitively, trans-inclusive spaces should be unobjectionable for people who want them. The problem exists for people who dont want them, and for whom market forces have failed to provide an alternative.

Depending on the evidence, mixed-sex services can be illegal because they are more disadvantageous for women than for men. But outside of specific regulations they do nevertheless exist because it suits providers and (in the form of 'trans-inclusion') is pushed by activists. We can't sue them all, but we can lobby for single-sex services to be mandatory in a wider range of scenarios. This might not stretch to recreational swimming.

And, we should make more consumer choice type noise about incorrect space-labelling and the fact that regulations around mixed-sex toileting lead to safety and hygiene issues.

I wish that the Jewish people of North London would sue, because they've been unable to use the Ponds since they went mixed.

WallaceinAnderland · Today 15:15

It will be interesting to see what changes they are making to the toilets and changing facilities.

I think it's most likely that the changing areas will be either single sex only or single person cubicles.

If the ponds remain mixed sex, then they would have to change the signage and women lose out yet again to any space of their own. free of men.

OP posts:
nicepotoftea · Today 15:15

theilltemperedamateur · Today 15:07

Swift J was being thorough: since a 'trans-inclusive' service lies outside the Schedule 3 SSEs, it must be examined for sex-discrimination on its own merits, by doing a 'less favourable treatment' analysis.

He sufficiently agreed that there was a potential liability, arising from the different access criteria for the two sexes, to justify including a statement to this effect in the Interim Update. He couldn't rule that there would always be illegal discrimination, because that might depend on the facts of the case.

For example one could argue that the Ponds, taken as a whole, are distinct from Al Hijra in that each user has the choice of two different types of mixed-sex service, rather than being segregated from the other sex.

Intuitively, trans-inclusive spaces should be unobjectionable for people who want them. The problem exists for people who dont want them, and for whom market forces have failed to provide an alternative.

Depending on the evidence, mixed-sex services can be illegal because they are more disadvantageous for women than for men. But outside of specific regulations they do nevertheless exist because it suits providers and (in the form of 'trans-inclusion') is pushed by activists. We can't sue them all, but we can lobby for single-sex services to be mandatory in a wider range of scenarios. This might not stretch to recreational swimming.

And, we should make more consumer choice type noise about incorrect space-labelling and the fact that regulations around mixed-sex toileting lead to safety and hygiene issues.

I wish that the Jewish people of North London would sue, because they've been unable to use the Ponds since they went mixed.

I think the argument is less over whether facilities and services should be trans inclusive and more over how they should be trans inclusive.

Silverbirchleaf · Today 15:17

This is one of those situations whereby being ‘inclusive’ actually results in you being ‘exclusive’, ie, excludes women who want single sex spaces.

theilltemperedamateur · Today 15:19

nicepotoftea · Today 15:15

I think the argument is less over whether facilities and services should be trans inclusive and more over how they should be trans inclusive.

Obviously, because of the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, everything should be trans-inclusive. When I use quote marks, I'm talking about the specific scenario of allowing 'trans' people to use opposite-sex 'single-sex' services.

nicepotoftea · Today 15:20

Were the ponds previously well used by religious communities?

theilltemperedamateur · Today 15:21

nicepotoftea · Today 15:20

Were the ponds previously well used by religious communities?

According to the Jewish Chronicle, yes.

RhannionKPSS · Today 15:24

nicepotoftea · Today 15:20

Were the ponds previously well used by religious communities?

Yes, they were , especially the women’s pond, also women who may have had mastectomies who might be embarrassed and distressed by men being in the women only pond. It’s outrageous that Hampstead think the can do this.

nicepotoftea · Today 15:26

theilltemperedamateur · Today 15:21

According to the Jewish Chronicle, yes.

By the way thank you for that long post - I should have said that it was informative and interesting!

Cantunseeit · Today 15:38

nicepotoftea · Today 14:43

But in the toilet scenario isn't it more likely that one would be arguing that it's the lack of single sex provision that causes the discrimination?

Yes but that’s dealt with in earlier paragraphs of the judgement. This section is merely covering is it unlawful for EHRC’s guidance to say it’s direct discrimination to let trans women in but not other men

PopstarPoppy · Today 16:19

The ponds are a perfect example of the fact the trans lobby isn’t really concerned with safety at all, it’s all about GETTING WHAT THEY WANT and BEING VALIDATED. Because there has always been a mixed pond, which trans people have always been able to use, along with everyone else. But no, trans women HAVE TO HAVE what they want and use the women’s pond. Because what they want matters more than what actual women want.

The biggest irony is that they behave in this manner while claiming that ‘trans women are women’. If they WERE women, they would understand why their behaviour is problematic. If they were women, they wouldn’t behave like that in the first place.

Keeptoiletssafe · Today 16:20

WallaceinAnderland · Today 15:15

It will be interesting to see what changes they are making to the toilets and changing facilities.

I think it's most likely that the changing areas will be either single sex only or single person cubicles.

If the ponds remain mixed sex, then they would have to change the signage and women lose out yet again to any space of their own. free of men.

To conform with building regulations, it will have to be universal toilet rooms, fully enclosed with their own sink and dryer. Each will be private (no gaps) and resistant to sound. They should be able to be unlocked easily from the outside. You can have pictograms of women or men or universal on the front to differentiate but all universal designs must open up onto a main circulation space. The women’s and universal should have a sanitary bin.

They normally require mechanical ventilation and cleaning them will be less efficient.

The sink and dryer won’t be as hygienic as those in a washroom (not in the flush plume zone). They are a nightmare for safety in comparison to cubicles. They will find this out after the huge extra cost of installing these.

theilltemperedamateur · Today 16:20

We can't sue them all, but we can lobby for single-sex services to be mandatory in a wider range of scenarios. This might not stretch to recreational swimming.

I already disagree with myself: I was not ambitious enough.

'Trans-inclusive' services, such as those for the exclusive use of women and transwomen, exist courtesy of Schedule 3 Part 7 combined with a now-corrected misinterpretation of the word 'sex'. They are proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim relating to sex, and they therefore represent an unambiguous social good (when correctly implemented) which benefits both sexes, for example by promoting modesty, privacy, and decency: we can forget about sex-discrimination and concentrate on promoting that social good.

My suggestion is this. Anyone who provides a 'trans-inclusive' service must also provide a single-sex alternative to an extent sufficient to meet demand. Let the users decide.

What7Words · Today 16:37

Why not label the mixed pond ‘Transwomen and Allies’ and then all those women who aren’t bothered about sharing facilities can get some extra virtue signalling points, the transwomen will be surrounded by women who won’t complain and will even compliment their womanliness. The women’s pond can be labelled ‘Mean and selfish women’ or something similar, and be left to women who want to be with just women. Wins all round?
Or will there actually be transwomen who insist on using the pond where they know they are not welcome, hope to cause distress and claim persecution? I wonder…

Keeptoiletssafe · Today 16:39

To have a range of universal toilet rooms all looking similar from the front except different pictograms should be interesting to see who chooses what.

MarieDeGournay · Today 16:44

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Today 14:36

@MarieDeGournay there would, in principle, be scope for a strong argument -
what would your old head of chambers make of that, HenriettaSwanLeavitt?
English for 'yeah ok you can argue that but don't expect me to agree with it'😄

Not my head of chambers, I'm afraid, it's Akua Reindorf's. I'm not even legal-adjacent. Though I do think I might have made a half-decent solicitor. In my next life, maybe.

Oops sorry🙁
When I was a teenager, I wanted to be a judge - in our next lives we might meet in court. If we were in the same jurisdiction. In which a solicitor could appear in court. But everything is possible in our next lives.Grin

ElenOfTheWays · Today 16:47

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Today 14:30

Apparently some of them already dislike the trans-identified females 'watching them'.

This comes under the heading of "too fucking bad"
if it was ok to ignore women saying they didn't want men in the women's pond then it must be ok for men to have women in their pond
They had their chance to object. They didn't bother because they didn't think it affected them and women don't matter.
FAFO.
Oh dear.