Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

[Pyjamatimenow]

Friend of mine has posted on her social media ( a very long detailed post) that basically trans rights are women’s rights and that what she sees as transphobia is akin to people who ‘punish’ women who don’t fit into gender stereotypes, don’t get married, don’t look ‘feminine’, don’t have children…Says she’s a feminist and defends the rights of trans women to live safely etc …whatever that means. Cis women mentioned several times. I don’t normally comment on these kinds of things on FB but struggling with this particular post! If I were to say something what would you say?

lol 2017 called and wants its 'arguments' nack

IKR

Howse that for a coincidence?

One clarification to my above post: by young daughter I mean young woman.

Yes I very much can. In this thread alone there are lots of sex based assumptions. Across the site? Millions. It's extremely conservative here, overall.

Feminism is the journey we take to free ourselves of gender.

Uh huh, good luck with that.

https://theconversation.com/sex-differences-dont-disappear-as-a-countrys-equality-develops-sometimes-they-become-stronger-222932

The weirdest thing is that the opposite is true. Trans rights are policing stereotypes. You are only a women if you look like one and vv. I have always found it interesting that people on the trans rights side of the debate use arguments for the other side as their arguments when in fact they are arguing against themselves.

Really? Aren't the new EHRC guidelines GC's demanded requiring surface level observation & not gamete tests for enforcement?

Absolutely- it’s a feature of the movement.

Shouldn’t matter either way. We all know whether we are a man or a woman so should be self policing. Shouldn’t even be an issue. This is only an issue as people claim to be the opposite sex when they know they aren’t. It isn’t for other members of society to police them.

And again with the graphic:

Yup. Good graphic.

Do they? I just think that men are male and women are female, because they are. End of. Behaviour does tend to follow cultural trends, but one's behaviour has absolutely nothing to do with whether one is male or female.

What I find is that trans rights activists disregard the process of socialisation on boys/men and girls/women.

X post with you @OtterlyAstounding as we are referring to the same misunderstanding.

Totally agree.

Yes.

Yes because we should be able in society to trust that people are who they say they are. It is only because people are deliberately breaking that trust that it causes people to get nervous and start questioning. This guidance shouldn’t be needed should it if people just go to the single sex space of their biological sex.

as it happens, surface level observation is accurate in 99.9% of cases. Occasionally someone might get it wrong but it’s rare and usually cleared up with a conversation.

The law, and the guidance, are based on the fact that there is an objective reality called sex, which everyone does know about themselves. The idea that this is difficult or unfortunate is definitely misogynist.

Im not someone who believes I can always tell. Yes I wish everyone would take that on board. Particularly because GC objections are often based on the understanding that you CAN’T always tell, but that gets glided over. If everyone could always tell, in every circumstance, there would t be an issue. And yes, I do think that eg women quite reasonably wanting single sex intimate care might easily find a very butch female transman turning up more upsetting than a feminine transwoman.

I still think, however, that law and public policy require honesty and agreed definitions. It is not ok for that very feminine transwoman to assure the woman needing care that she’s a woman, because she’s not. It is absolutely ok for that transwoman to interrogate and campaign on what people mean when they ask for single sex intimate care. But overriding that woman’s boundaries is still not right. And I think that the trans people I know would say the same. What we have found in recent years is that if there is a legal loophole, there are a bunch of chancers who will absolutely push through it, which was entirely predictable.

Except I was using it to disagree with you.

GC women do not believe that all men have a shared set of thoughts, behaviours and intentions, any more than we think that women share a uni-mind.

We know, from data and statistics that men are stronger, faster, bigger and more violent than women, and have the capacity to impregnate women, therefore we know that men are statistically a threat to women.

That is the only generalisation that GC women make.

I'm afraid your 'argument' is unconvincing. Probably because you're wrong.

Yes. It's harder than people think. It's a hereditary disease (that's a metaphor for something you pick up from your immediate family not an actual diseae, obviously) and it's the work of generations to get past it.

But hey, congratulations on sharing one the MRAs' favourite anti-Feminist talking points to try to make your "case"!

Feminist women - the real ones not the You Go Girl T shirt ones - know this. We experience the tension between how we learned to think of ourselves and present ourselves as women and our understanding later in life that these are not formed in a vacuum but shaped by our environments. You think it is belittling to recognise this. It isn't. It is scary, brave and honest to face ones own part in things one wishes were different. But it has to be done, woman by woman, at that personal level, to move forward.

There is a reason Feminists used to say the personal is political.

If she is claiming that women's rights depend on lying about biological reality, she is arguing against women's rights.

"as it happens, surface level observation is accurate in 99.9% of cases."

You know this how? Every trans person ever has been 'assessed' by everyone & the results tallied have they?

Please save the clownsville 'science' for face book.

"You think it is belittling to recognise this."

My point was its not factual because biology as in genes & hormones says so.

Well if someone passes that easily then they get away with it. I am none the wiser. I don’t ask every single person who I come into contact with what sex they are. I do have a high degree of trust.

but for instance, saw all the hype about Hunter Schaffer where everyone was going on about well they pass.l and how beautiful they are etc etc. I took one look and was thinking that is clearly a male. Everything about them screams a male body regardless of makeup and
clothes. Elliot page- clearly a female. There is no way I wouldn’t notice what sex they are. I would hope that they self police into the right single sex space.

I don’t doubt there are a few cases who go unnoticed but most people can clock certain signs. But regardless we shouldn’t need to go by looks- we should just simply trust people go by their biological sex in their daily life. How they present themselves publicly is irrelevant. I want a society where no one has to police anyone else as we know they will do they right thing