Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

[Pyjamatimenow]

Friend of mine has posted on her social media ( a very long detailed post) that basically trans rights are women’s rights and that what she sees as transphobia is akin to people who ‘punish’ women who don’t fit into gender stereotypes, don’t get married, don’t look ‘feminine’, don’t have children…Says she’s a feminist and defends the rights of trans women to live safely etc …whatever that means. Cis women mentioned several times. I don’t normally comment on these kinds of things on FB but struggling with this particular post! If I were to say something what would you say?

Thats exactly what I just said. Identify as whatever you want, disabled, age 6 whatever. I am agreeing with you.

Feminism is about the bodily autonomy of females, and being treated as entire human beings who are equal to males in terms of dignity, respect, and intelligence. Not the right to say we are things that we categorically are not.

What are you talking about? The principles of women’s rights ARE for women, the real ones, selectively. Once men are included, that’s when it loses it’s meaning.

Exactly, what other areas does self determination trump biological reality.

I can't claim to be a different race, disabled, elderly or a child because I associate with these groups most strongly and share similar traits. Neither can anybody else and it would be outrageous to suggest it. For example, I have a relative that is very childlike and is learning disabled so has many of the same behaviours and interests as children. He is definitively not a child. The biological reality is that he's an adult. Traits, behaviours and stereotypes cannot trump this.

Well no, that's not the context.

But if it was, what does that mean, practically speaking?

This one?

Exactly. That’s why we can’t allow one group of men to be allowed in female spaces and not the others. You’re finally getting it. Well done buddy

“Cis” women?
Surely you are so educated with your erudite knowledge of women that you understand the offensiveness of that term to ACTUAL women?
If not, educate yourself mate!

Look at the verbal gymnastics you are having to perform in order to try to persuade yourself and others than men are women. It's not working.

@Pyjamatimenow - your friend is incorrect, feminism is about biological women and amongst many things it fights against gender stereotyping. Defending women's rights is not transphobia. For a small minority of American evangelical style people (are there any in the UK really?) I agree that there is a horror of anyone who doesn't fit within gender stereotypical boxes - gay men, butch women, etc. Nothing could be more than different than that small minority and feminists, and conflating the two shows that your friend can't have considered this issues in detail.

Or perhaps she is just being performative and virtue-signalling? Facebook does lend itself to that, it is hardly the venue for a reasoned discussion with a friend. I wouldn't get involved with the Facebook post and would just calmly discuss with my friend if she ever brings the topic up in person.

Well hey! Howse that !!

Self determinism, blanks slates, copy catting, and GG. Woohoo.

Yes, certain characteristics are more common in one sex but there is a huge amount of variance at a population level.

The tail ends are irrelevant to the point here of how human categorisations work. When an overwhelming majority of a group adopts certain behaviours they become associated to them. This isn't stereotyping this just a fact of how human categorisation works because in no way does saying that typical behaviours associated with a group exist mean that less typical one's don't exist. Its as silly as say people can't hold two different thoughts in their heads at the same time.
Dismissing an overarching pattern or valid phenomenon simply because a few minority variations don't fit the rule indeed leads to deeply flawed, incompetent evaluations.

I think you are bordering on some rather radical suggestions that for example butch lesbians have male gender expressions and therefore should be considered men if you are to suggest that men in skirts that 'feel' like women should be considered women.

An is is not an ought. Recognising some groups have a commonality with others doesn't mean they require the same treatment. Both minors & adults being an example. It's as if you would like people to pretend there are no parallels between groups when there clearly are. And in any case self determination encompasses the right to individual values. In other words its up to the butch natal female what defines them more when it comes to gender: Their reproductive or behavioural traits.

I don't ever understand the claim that it is gender critical people who enforce gender roles. The people who think a boy wanting to wear a dress or have long hair is really a girl are the ones firmly on the gender policing side.

Humans don't change sex and what you like to wear and do doesn't indicate what your sex is. It's madness.

Yes. Like the parallels between men with a trans identity and those without. Both are hen, both are male, both pose the same rusk to women. You’re so right on this.

When an overwhelming majority of a group adopts certain behaviours they become associated to them. This isn't stereotyping this just a fact of how human categorisation works because in no way does saying that typical behaviours associated with a group exist mean that less typical one's don't exist.

@Baileyonice in the Georgian period men wore big wigs, heels, make up and 'pretty' clothes. There is nothing inherently female about these things. Likewise the cultures where male clothing consists or consisted of skirted items rather than trousers.
Are you suggesting a trans woman in 1790 would be a man because they liked a bit of make up and a heeled shoe. Stereotypical behaviour changes over time and place with is why it can't be used to determine sex. Unlike biology.

Ah, the old "Slaves are just people who really like wearing chains" argument.

An old poster HowseItGoing used to use that one a lot as well.

His usual reply to my point that female people have a very complicated relationship with the gender stereotypes within which our identities are formed was to wrongly claim I think women are incapable of making their own decisions. He often used the phrase "Monkey see, monkey do". Interested to see if you will try the same approach.

(He was wrong, obviously. The idea that we aren't shaped by the "norms" we see as we grow up and even as adults is so blatantly laughable that only a deeply solipsistic person would deny it, because such a person's ego cannot face it. Of course one of the critical insights of Feminism is to recognise how gender is constructed rather than innate, something that women experience directly and personally).

I'm a parent who doesn't spend my life vexing about a minority and imagining it's feminism.

I'd never reject my child for who they are, or try to control them.

The vast, vast majority of trans kids will never even get counselling for their gender dysphoria. Surgery for under-18s is banned most places.

But trans men are being forced towards surgery by denial of care when they were younger, which is awful.

Anyone who obsesses over children's bodies online should really consider how they look to other people. It's suspect as hell, given the tiny number of trans kids who take hormones or blockers.

Women's rights are undermined by anti-trans activism. It promotes gender conformity, disparages female accomplishment in sport, and encourages the idea of limiting what young women should be able to do with their bodies.

It attracts men who like talking about children's bodies, the far right (because it normalises the use of slurs, encourages the idea that minorities can be attacked, infantilises women) and people who enjoy bullying.

I've encountered some good people on here. But many are simply eager to throw hate, resorting to furious sarcasm and glorying in being abusive. That is resulting in a lot of real-world violence, while doing nothing to combat VAWG.

It's enjoyable, though. Far more fun to discuss whether trans women should be allowed to modify their bodies than reckon with the horrifying rape injustice stories of the past week.

But I think my biggest issue with transphobia is how it lets violent cis men off the hook. Their abhorrent behaviour is seen as inevitable and unchallengable, so best focus on making sure completely public, unprotected spaces don't contain the odd trans woman instead. Throw some slurs at them, make it a game! Maybe film a few signs? Be furious when a trans man appears on a dating show - that'll help! Oh look, a flag! In Waitrose!

Meanwhile, violent cis men and paedophiles are delighted, because they can join in too. Telling women they'll be their protectors. Attacking parents for standing up for their kids.

I'm a parent who rejects the petty, do-nothing, deeply reductionist opinions of transphobia, and is right now praying my child comes home safe.

Well, you asked.

And how do they know "who is a woman" is that appearance based or do they look at genitals first?

@Pyjamatimenow i haven’t used fb for years now, something I feel very strongly about was being constantly defended by my friends and it’s something I legitimately understand, their feelings on it outweigh sense and it’s a very dangerous view they’re peddling. It’s horrid when you feel like a pariah with your friends because your views differ so much from your own.
I honestly wouldn’t bother commenting, how many times have people been swayed over the internet to succumb to the opposite opinion? The Trans debates are very divisive. I have trans friends I love dearly but disagree with so many narratives being pushed by the wider community and for lack of better words because I’ve not had a coffee yet, many of the people within the community I find blatantly noncey and predatory. I can love my very long term friends who’ve been trans for many years. (Actually one of my friends is from primary school, now she, but he, at PE when we were very small children would wear my gingham summer dress before getting into his pe kit as he just wanted to wear something pretty. The 90s were not kind to him and by early 2000s my friend had made a serious attempt on their own life) anyway, he is now a she but bless doesn’t pass at all as a woman. I know calling my friend her will upset some posters but I can’t say him unless it’s past tense. But my friend doesn’t pass as a woman. But mentally is much more sane being able to be called a female name, wearing floaty dresses and being in a relationship with a man. My friend has heath complications also so always uses the disabled loo. Anyway I love my pals dearly and defend their right to wear and present how they are happy. However I also think they should be given 3rd spaces for toilets and changing rooms. Even though both TW friends have zero interest in women sexually, it’s still not fair on women who do not want to share spaces with biomen. It’s hard to have such fundamental differences between your friends, but you can choose what to react to and not.

Fortunately genitals are not the only physical difference between men and women. I have been wearing 'mens' clothes (I.e. trousers, shirts, etc) for decades and not once have I been mistaken for a man, even though I'm average male height. We can tell because woman aren't men and vice versa.

What I notice about both very pro-trans rights people and GC people on places like here is that they do share very rigid ideas about the sexes.

It's veey much like men are X and women are Y (or maybe the other way around!). Most arguments on both sides are founded in the belief that men have a shared set of thoughts, behaviours and intentions and women do, too. It's interesting to watch.

"The idea that we aren't shaped by the "norms" we see as we grow up and even as adults is so blatantly laughable that only a deeply solipsistic person would deny it, because such a person's ego cannot face it."

Do you even realise what you are saying about women here? That they aren't capable of knowing their own minds & expressing it? That their own personal preferences are completely vulnerable to social conditioning? That their emotions rule their minds hence they aren't suitable for positions of power?

You realise all this is a favourite MRA talking point right?

There is no more misogynist ideology than one that believes women particularly those of modernity aren't capable of rational thinking because they are slaves to approval.

You can't have been paying much attention while "watching" mumsnet if that's the conclusion you've drawn

The sad thing is that there are genuinely interesting things to say about how patriachy's rejection of the female and devaluing of the person penetrated becomes disgust of anything culturally seen as feminine, how that manifests in misogyny, homophobia and transphobia (the latter in the real sense of disgust of people who are gender non-conforming not the TRA sense of "saying no to those who think we should be redefining ourselves by gender stereotypes"), and how gay people, homosexuality acts (not necessarily by people who see themselves as gay) and trans people have become culturally entwined in different ways in different patriachal culture.

But that is not what your friend is getting at. Your friend is just falling for the superficial con of "if a woman can be anything she wants, then "woman" can mean anything anyone wants, including male people's inner selves".

And sadly it's a conversation that will remain impossible as long as TRAs insist that trans people literally are in some ihe sex they aspire to be, because they not only deny the differences between the needs, drivers and experiences of women and trans identifying men, but even the language and concepts we need to have a discussion at all.

I'd try to bring her back down to earth a bit.
It's all very well having her opinion but sometimes when you're confronted with the reality of a man in a dress stripping off in front of you or your young daughter and you just sense he's getting off on it in a changing room well lets just say all the theory goes out the window.
Ask her to imagine that reality.
(Let's hope she doesn't live it.)

And, yes, a lot of these men get off on it.
Makes my skin crawl.

There's a reason why all this trans shit is labelled a luxury belief.
And while I appreciate that of course it's a feminist issue, sometimes just focusing on that wholly may not be the right approach.

For me, it's not about who's the better feminist or who's more right, it's to stop these men taking over female spaces.

Hahaha yep exactly on queue. "Monkey see monkey do", right?

You do realise, knowing that is your playbook reply, I anticipated and counterargued already, right?

Feminism is the journey we take to free ourselves of gender.