Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

[Pyjamatimenow]

Friend of mine has posted on her social media ( a very long detailed post) that basically trans rights are women’s rights and that what she sees as transphobia is akin to people who ‘punish’ women who don’t fit into gender stereotypes, don’t get married, don’t look ‘feminine’, don’t have children…Says she’s a feminist and defends the rights of trans women to live safely etc …whatever that means. Cis women mentioned several times. I don’t normally comment on these kinds of things on FB but struggling with this particular post! If I were to say something what would you say?

Yes it is.

Something about the discussion reminded me of a novel written nearly a century ago, where the deeply smitten hero wonders to himself "why a jumper and a short tweed skirt made a girl look so much more feminine than flowing draperies". . . .

Feminity is in the eye of the beholder, and in that case it was all about the instant attraction of character.

People from last month's 'first lines' game will recognise the characters. I must do a full re-read.

Trans people aren't trying to 'look like women' by "adopting feminine forms". They are expressing their inclination towards femininity just like cis women aren't trying to look like what the patriarchy demands rather express theirs.

What makes you think that TIMs aren't trying to look like women? If they just wanted to express their inclination towards femininity they'd wear feminine styles of clothing, feminine hairstyles and makeup, but they wouldn't wear fake breasts. This is what indicates that they're trying to look like women, or in some cases parodying women rather than just being men who wear feminine clothing.

"but they wouldn't wear fake breasts."

They wouldn't seek to either wear fake breasts or to develop breasts if they weren't attempting to emulate women's bodies.

One of the most feminine women I know habitually wears jeans and a tee-shirt, and often they are men's jeans with a belt and don't really fit her very well. Also flat-heeled shoes because she reckons high heels hurt make her Achilles tendon hurt. Obviously she can also "dress up" if the occasion warrants it, but she doesn't spend her life strapped into ridiculous fancy-dress.

One of the trans-identifying men I know wears sensible clothes appropriate to what he is doing. The others, not so much: it seems as if they feel that if they are not performatively feminine, other people might not notice them as they always seem to want to be noticed.

😂

But femininity is connected to my skeleton, my fat distribution, my skull shape etc. ie connected me being a women. The way i stand is feminine as my hips influence that. The way i stand is influenced by my torso length which is shorter than biological men. Being feminine refers to things intrinsically linked to our female bodies. I can dress in masculine style to emulate my husband’s dress which flatters his male body but doesn’t make me masculine myself as I am not a man.

a man can try and emulate femininity but doesn’t actually make them feminine as they are not women.

We have two different uses of the word feminine going on here. People can use the word however they wish but I was using it to mean things that are derived from a skeleton, and/or a fat distribution as well as (often historic) societal expectations, but exist in the absence of those factors.

Those things include coloured lips, long eye lashes, padded hips, a particular (“feminine”) gait often accentuated by high heels, painted nails, an accentuated bust which is often a featured element. And others. Everyone knows these things perfectly well. This is (obviously) not intended to be a comprehensive list and for the avoidance of doubt it is possible to be and to look feminine without any of these attributes.

In the way I was using it - it can be applied to lots of things men can do, and yes, men can look feminine.

To say a man can emulate femininity but not be feminine doesn’t alter what the man does or why. The distinction comes down to the way a word is used, and I don’t think it’s point on which anything hangs.

The feminine is entirely conceptual. Women stand, walk, etc differently from men because they are female. No man can ever be female. He can attempt to imitate the postures, clothes etc of the female, but he won't be female, even if he succeeds in appearing feminine. He will never be a woman.

I don't think anyone sane would describe a dog or a horse or the flowers of a holly tree as feminine, though they may well be female. The culture-limited, time-limited things that go into 'feminine' and 'masculine' presentation are all about imagination. Sex is real.

Trans people aren't trying to 'look like women' by "adopting feminine forms". They are expressing their inclination towards femininity just like cis women aren't trying to look like what the patriarchy demands rather express theirs

If they just trying to "express their inclination towards femininity" they would stick to twirly skirts rather than claim to be women and try to co-opt all our stuff.

I’ve completely lost track of this thread but in case anyone is interested, after posting what I would say were fairly balanced and low key comments I got removed from her group and unfriended. It has rattled me somewhat I have to say.

Unfortunately, no deviation from the approved message or even gently questioning it can be tolerated, as you have discovered.

I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately your ex friend has revealed herself to be the very definition of a bigot, someone who is not able to tolerate other people having differing beliefs. If she is providing services to vulnerable women on that basis she is liable to get herself in legal hot water if she's not careful.

I did suspect that and have seen that played out for others in much worse ways but it still has left me feeling a bit of a sense of injustice.
She left me on there after my initial comment but then someone commented about trans people being removed from the military. I said that I wasn’t a trump supporter and I don't doubt that many transgender service members were capable and dedicated. My concern is that some organisations have made accommodations for transgender individuals that would not be available to others in similar circumstances, and that raises legitimate questions about fairness and equal treatment.

My friend isn’t American so I doubt she was referring to that particularly issue for trans people in her initial post. Her previous posts have been about women’s sports.

IMHO you did the right thing. The topic isn't even the important point here; she is bullying you. It's as simple as that, and I wish everyone would call it out more often.