Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

[Pyjamatimenow]

Friend of mine has posted on her social media ( a very long detailed post) that basically trans rights are women’s rights and that what she sees as transphobia is akin to people who ‘punish’ women who don’t fit into gender stereotypes, don’t get married, don’t look ‘feminine’, don’t have children…Says she’s a feminist and defends the rights of trans women to live safely etc …whatever that means. Cis women mentioned several times. I don’t normally comment on these kinds of things on FB but struggling with this particular post! If I were to say something what would you say?

Go on then, what is the "argument being made"?

You decided to start sniping about JK Rowling for reasons which are totally unclear.

Well, maybe they are clear. This sort of speculation about whether or not a woman has had cosmetic surgery is due to misogyny and ageism.

I don't care whether or not she's had any cosmetic surgery. Why do you?

Just be clear, I'm a 'fan' of cosmetic surgery so I don't have an issue with JKR or anyone else using it.

If you have at all been following this discussion on the thread you would know this isn't about the rights & wrong of feminine aesthetics but the hypocrisy claiming it enables sex stereotypes while also using it.

'Suddenly' when JKR & other GC elites engage in such behaviour it's 'sniping' about their choices as a diversion from their hypocrisy. Again that's why the GC movement aren't considered to act in good faith or be coherent in their beliefs.

I haven't said anything about whether this is at the same level of violence as women experience. It was Mapletree1985 who mentioned that in her post that I quoted.

So all you were trying to show with your link was that some trans people have been victims of violent crimes? I don't think anyone would dispute that. Even Mapletree said as much in her post that I quoted: "There is the occasional very rare incident".

You're really not being clear about what you're trying to prove with your random links (posted without comment) and your snipes and digs at other posters and celebrities.

1/10. Must try harder.

this isn't about the rights & wrong of feminine aesthetics but the hypocrisy claiming it enables sex stereotypes while also using it.

To avoid another misunderstanding, what do you mean by this?

'Suddenly' when JKR & other GC elites engage in such behaviour it's 'sniping' about their choices as a diversion from their hypocrisy. Again that's why the GC movement aren't considered to act in good faith or be coherent in their beliefs.

"GC elites"? WTF is one of those? And what hypocrisy?

What is incoherent about saying that people can't change sex and that sex stereotyping is bad?

Is the proposition here that women who look like women are wrong? And that if they look healthy and in conformity with whatever is 'ordinary nice' wrt clothes etc they are more wrong? That seems only a whisper away from saying we should be invisible.

Would burkas be enough or do we need a full-on Afghan ruling keeping us inside our homes and forbidden to look out the windows?

Bailey doesn’t seem capable of explaining the point they are trying to make clearly.

If your ideas are not rational, but are constructed in an arena where words can mean whatever you like, it becomes very difficult to express oneself with any true clarity.

If using dog whistles, buzzwords and drawing false equivalences usually bring you plaudits amongst your peers, because you are signalling “right think”, you don’t ever have to look for concrete meaning in what you are saying.

“No debate” really hasn’t done any favours for those who are happy with the notion that TWAW without question.

Back to what was asked of you:

What was the point you were making when you started having a random go at Rowling for potentially having cosmetic surgery?

What is your argument?

Just like drag does for sexual stereotypes.

I think I can express Baileys argument: trans-identifying men are criticized for adopting feminine forms, surgery, the critique is that they are perpetuating sex stereotypes by doing so. Women who adopt feminine forms, surgery etc are not criticized (by the same people) even though they are also perpetuating sex stereotypes.

From my perspective the flaw in the argument is that I don’t criticize men who adopt feminine forms surgery etc. for the perpetuation of stereotypes. I accept that people are free to exercise choice about what they look like.

On the subject of drag: that’s not adopting a feminine aspect, that’s parodying it. I think that’s open to criticism. I would level the same criticism at a female performer who did the same.

Re drag, this (really clear and well-written) article was posted on another thread here some weeks ago - it directly equates drag to blackface:

https://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3209&context=cklawreview

I think I can express Baileys argument: trans-identifying men are criticized for adopting feminine forms, surgery, the critique is that they are perpetuating sex stereotypes by doing so. Women who adopt feminine forms, surgery etc are not criticized (by the same people) even though they are also perpetuating sex stereotypes.

A heroic attempt at condensing. Assuming that is the argument, isn't that a bit like comparing a black person wearing skin-colour-matched makeup to a white person blacking up?

Regardless, I don't think this is an accusation of hypocrisy that can be levelled at JKR, at least I haven't seen her objecting to men getting plastic surgery if they wish. Wouldn't surprise me if she had something funny to say about oxford giant boob man, but he is definitely in parody black-face territory and nothing to do with trans.

Agree with all of this.

I also suspect that some men think that women intentionally have higher pitched voices/breasts/ different gait/hips/female facial features.

They regard male as the norm, so anything different must be intentional - similar to assuming that people are just being annoying when they don't speak English.

Whether or not Rowling has had a face lift/tweekments, it's on top of the same bone structure.

I'm sorry, so you think that women have cosmetic surgery to look more like women? As opposed to younger/more attractive?

Um... they already look like women because they ARE women

Stereotypes? Women are not "hypocritical" for succumbing to the pressure to look like younger versions of THEMSELVES.
No amount of surgery/fillers etc. to follow the current fashionable idea of what looks attractive in a woman, when used by actual women, equates to men leveraging those stereotypes order to pretend he also is a woman.
See also: mini dresses, high heels, false eyelashes, long hair, lingerie...

well done for trying to explain but still doesn’t make any sense to me - How can a women ‘adopt feminine forms’ when they are women though? Femininity doesn’t exist in its own realm- it is intrinsically connected to being a women. And it doesn’t mean just looking pretty or girlie - I am feminine even on the days when I wear no make up, baggy jeans and my husband’s shirt.

There’s nothing hypocritical in JKR having plastic surgery.

She’s GC, and as such, understands that sex can be important in some circumstances.

How anybody presents is another matter entirely and is utterly irrelevant to maintaining single sex provisions for women.

But Bailey knows this, he’s just interested in wasting people’s time with ridiculous, nonsensical, self-serving word salad.

BunfightBetty
he’s just interested in wasting people’s time with ridiculous, nonsensical, self-serving word salad.

I think that's all that really needs to be said. There are other, more interesting people (that's a very low bar) on this thread, after all.

And some of them don't assume that anything anyone says must be about them and need them to reply to it!

I think it was a glimpse into the posters own perspective - surgery/treatments are used to appear more feminine.

It could be based on the idea that middle aged women aged look more masculine so they are having surgery for gender affirming rather than for any other reason.

It could in other words be based on a load of old foetid dingoes' kidneys....?

You reckon he thinks middle-aged (and older) women should look masculine, hence the wild accusations of cheating when some of them (actually pretty well all of them) demonstrably don't.

This is stupidity enough to be possibly accurate.

Some of the TRAs on here have been confused as to the difference between HRT and artificial cross-sex hormones. Does that lead to their imagining that post-menopause, women's bodies become male or masculinised?

"well done for trying to explain but still doesn’t make any sense to me - How can a women ‘adopt feminine forms’ when they are women though? Femininity doesn’t exist in its own realm- it is intrinsically connected to being a women."

Bravo! Finally!

And pray tell why is femininity "intrinsically connected to being women"?

Bi modal hormone & gene distribution between the sexes anyone?

Trans people aren't trying to 'look like women' by "adopting feminine forms". They are expressing their inclination towards femininity just like cis women aren't trying to look like what the patriarchy demands rather express theirs.

"I love it when a plan comes together"…….

Trans people aren't trying to 'look like women' by "adopting feminine forms".

No, actually they are.

They are expressing their inclination towards femininity just like cis women aren't trying to look like what the patriarchy demands rather express theirs.

But even if they're not, it doesn't matter. They can be as inclined towards femininity as they like. They're still men.

'Yes it is' or 'no it isn't' doesn't qualify as an argument. You will need to do better.