Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

[Pyjamatimenow]

Friend of mine has posted on her social media ( a very long detailed post) that basically trans rights are women’s rights and that what she sees as transphobia is akin to people who ‘punish’ women who don’t fit into gender stereotypes, don’t get married, don’t look ‘feminine’, don’t have children…Says she’s a feminist and defends the rights of trans women to live safely etc …whatever that means. Cis women mentioned several times. I don’t normally comment on these kinds of things on FB but struggling with this particular post! If I were to say something what would you say?

@Baileyonice
The study you link doesn't prove your points. Prenatal exposure to hormones will undoubtedly impact lots of things. It doesn't change your sex.

This is what's commonly referred to as a 'false equivalence'. Trans people have an association in that they share behavioural characteristics & inclinations typical to the opposite sex. There's no association between black & white people or adults to minors. All these categories are defined differently so you can't compare them. How race is defined depends on physical attributes. Age depends on chronological years. Gender depends on gendered associations with
What complete nonsense!

Sex is defined by chromosomes. Gender is not sex. You can't change sex because you have gendered associations. Sex is much easier to categorise than race for example.

Lots of people feel an affinity with different groups and share more of their characteristics and traits than they share with people in their biological class.

Age is a great example. Studies show that certain traits become more common as we age such as increasing conscientiousness and less neuroticism. I used my disabled relative as an example who has far more overlap in terms of characteristics, abilities and interests with children than he does with adults his own age. Why doesn't this make him a child using your logic? There are scientifically observable trends associated with age too, many driven by changes in biology and hormones so does a young woman that goes through early menopause and has a chronic condition that effectively prematurely ages her body in some respects get to identify as older? Does it help her case if she likes knitting and gardening which are interests that typically skew towards older people? What if you have delayed puberty and are immature, do you get to identify as younger?

Studies have consistently shown some traits are more prevent in the black community including resilience, hyper- vigilance and spirituality. If I share these traits and perm my hair etc can I identify as black?

but for instance, saw all the hype about Hunter Schaffer where everyone was going on about well they pass.l and how beautiful they are etc etc. I took one look and was thinking that is clearly a male

I had never heard of this person so I had to google. I agree it's clear and that's just from a picture. Seeing the person in movement would give even more clarity.

Who’s ’you lot’?

I don't need to speak for all women. One exception to your sexist ideas is enough to break your sexist "theory".
And mate, there are so many more than one of us.

Really? The movement has clearly plateaued with a significant global & generational disinterest. GC ideology is very particular to the UK.

Ironically you actually picked a great example to demonstrate how society makes it rational for women to act against our own long term interests.

Err, humans aren't amoebas as in they are capable of complex thinking. I know this may become a shock to some here but many women enjoy their sexuality & often use feminine coded fashion choices to enhance it like high heel & fitted, sheer clothing. Women also enjoy the artistry & beauty in women's fashion including the feminine kind. Women use feminine attire to command hierarchical power over other women. There's also a sense of celebrating woman hood in accentuating it & the list goes on.

Just because women use feminine attire to attract men doesn't mean they don't enjoy it on other levels as an expression of their authenticity.

Trans people have an association in that they share behavioural characteristics & inclinations typical to the opposite sex.

This is a common claim. Its also claimed that 'transition' isnt easy. Its not something men do without soul searching and a lot of work. They have to observe women and practice voice training, how to walk, how to behave like women. They take drugs and have surgery. They cannot expect, they tell each other, to pass instantaneous and without effort.

Women are told that the effort of these men proves their true gender.

Its also said that we cannot assume gender. If someone is in the ladies its because they know their gender and we dont.

So its something that's natural and takes work, and shared behaviour that women cannot see.

Make up your mind, chaps.

The point being doesn't everybody deserve that?

What was it that caused Judith Butler's ideas about gender being a performance and not an innate or fixed identity - to morph into the idea that a 'gender identity' was somehow innate or fixed?

Butler said that gender was a performative construct honed through repetition of certain acts and behaviours - a performance. That 'gender' was an action and not something essential and that repeated actions created the illusion of a fixed 'gender identity'.

Many of these post modernistic gender theorists were gay or lesbian - and as such had grown to consciously reject sex based expectations and stereotypes and have fun playing around with 'gender performances'. Additionally, has american prissiness over the use of the word 'Sex' has led to the word 'Gender' becoming a synonym for 'Sex'

Sorry your thread has been somewhat derailed, OP.

Here is Bailey's view as I understand it:

1. A "female" personality is to a large degree the expression of something innate.

1. About 1 in 400 people have this "female" personality despite appearing male in most if not all physiological respects.

1. Having this female personality trumps all physiological facts in terms of how you interact with society.

#3 is what gives rise to the claim that trans women should use female toilets and changing rooms. (To be fair I don't know if this is Bailey's view but I would guess it is.) This is the claim that toilets and changing rooms ought, for some reason I have never really understood, be segregated not on what body you have but on your psychological characteristics.

I would also raise a large question mark over #2, given that many trans women fail to adopt many female-typical behaviours beyond the most stereotyped and superficial ones. I mean, if you put on a flouncey dress, a large wig and adopt a few exaggerated "feminine" mannerisms, but otherwise continue to act like a rather typical man, then claims that you have an innate female personality are not terribly convincing.

I am willing to accept that in principle there may be some male-bodied people with entirely female-typical personality traits but if so they must be much rarer than the people calling themselves trans women. I have known some rather "feminine" men and some very "masculine" women, and even they have had behavioural traits more typical to their own sex than the other one.

The problem is technology has moved on since the 'hard wiring' for the purposes of confusing the 'hard wiring' as in hormones, puberty blockers, surgery etc etc.

Old women look young, flat chested women look bigger, women look like men/ men look like women etc etc

Not to mention there's this thing called 'biological diversity' & 'menopause' & 'cancer treatment' where women look like men, men look like women & so on.

She is no kind of feminist if she thinks being a woman is defined by sex stereotypes.

I know this may become a shock to some here but many women enjoy their sexuality & often use feminine coded fashion choices to enhance it like high heel & fitted, sheer clothing.

I suspect you spend a lot of time thinking about high heels and tight clothing.

Cancer treatment doesn’t make anyone look like they’ve changed sex. Short/no hair and a single or double mastectomy does not make a woman look like a man, no matter how many men in dresses wishes it did.

Technology has not moved human nature on in the way it would idealistically like to imagine it has. The whole transhumanist movement is an idealistic one predicated on trying to rise above or beyond the confines and limitations and instincts of life on earth. Largely perpetrated and indulged by male american billionnaires.

But people are still the biological sex and age they are- nothing can change that and society is built on rules around those attributes . No one should be going around lying about it regardless of how they look or act.

no one suggests a 40 year old who has surgery to look 20 (not that they would ever look 20) can claim discrimination because they weren’t given a graduate job aimed for young people under 25.

What does “the right to self determination of identity” mean in practice?

Identity exists in a person’s mind, and manifests itself usually in clothing/hair/tattoos etc to signal to the rest of the world how a person sees themselves

A person can believe what they like about their identity, dress how they like in many circumstances, no-one is stopping them.

But when upholding that identity “requires” access to female only spaces that were fought for and set up for the safety, dignity and privacy of female people, there is a conflict of rights.

The right to express an identity has limits because we live in a society with other people. We don’t let people work with young children while wearing fetish gear for example.

At its core, this is about whether you view being female as a physical attribute, or whether you believe it is an identity that can be adopted.

Additionally, resembling is not the same thing as being.

A post menopausal woman is still female; as is a woman who has had a mastectomy.

Not to mention there's this thing called 'biological diversity' & 'menopause' & 'cancer treatment' where women look like men, men look like women & so on.

What the actual fuck?
Vile leveraging of medical conditions to prove a non-existent "point"

Menopausal women do not look like men. Women with mastectomies don’t look like men. Women with short hair don’t look like men. Women with small boobs don’t look like men. Women who are tall don’t look like men.

Yes, I think this is at the core of the debate.

We live in a relatively liberal society where people can generally identify how they like. If you want to cosplay as a pirate or a cat, I honestly don't care. If you though insist that you take the legal identity of a cat and insist that some poor vet has to treat you as such them this becomes a problem. You start to impact other people and their rights to live how they want which in most cases involves acknowledging biological reality.

So it's all about a conflict of rights. The right to self determine versus the right to acknowledge biological reality. The vast majority of people support the latter and we live in a democracy so it follows that these rights should be given priority.

I don't know why anyone still uses fb for socialising. None of the younger people in my family do. I have Whatsapp groups with my friends and family. I keep a fb account purely to find out what events are happening locally. People say X is a cesspit, but I learn far more from X then I ever did from fb, and fb seems to bring out the absolute worst in human virtue-signalling, humble-bragging and trolling.

I agree about Facebook ^

Do you really need to say anything in response, OP? Normally I would advocate a robust response to this nonsense, but FB isn't the place to do it. It's just for people who want to broadcast (among all the shitty adverts). Let her have her say. See who agrees. Make your own mind up.

Sometimes there's a lot to be said for what our grannies used to tell us: "silence speaks louder than words"!

Trans rights really do enforce stereotypes
I thought that being gender critical means opposing stereotypes and stereotypical behaviour. It seems people think it's being against the whole trans subject. Although I'm fully aware one cannot change sex, dress how you like, I do not care.

I will never understand women (or men)who advocate so strongly for men to access any space for women. It's not all about toilets.
And if it looks like transmen are ' ignored' maybe because they're less of a 'threat'. They are welcome in womens' spaces. But if a TM wants to use mens' spaces, fine; their choice.

As for 'educate yourself' oh the irony.
Heard it all before

Oh and if you see transphobia, hate or bullying, please please report it.
MN are rightly hot on this.

Really not. A lot of people here are too far indoctorined in their own beliefs to accept new information anyway.

Nope! Many of us are up for hearing some convincing arguments. With evidence.

Bring them on! Now's your chance! The floor is yours!