Friends suggesting transphobia and misogyny both rooted in policing gender roles

[Pyjamatimenow]

Friend of mine has posted on her social media ( a very long detailed post) that basically trans rights are women’s rights and that what she sees as transphobia is akin to people who ‘punish’ women who don’t fit into gender stereotypes, don’t get married, don’t look ‘feminine’, don’t have children…Says she’s a feminist and defends the rights of trans women to live safely etc …whatever that means. Cis women mentioned several times. I don’t normally comment on these kinds of things on FB but struggling with this particular post! If I were to say something what would you say?

Blimey, thats a lot of words to say women cannot organise without the permission and inclusion of men.

It's not gender policing.

It's insisting that biology matters.

It's also insisting that dressing up heels, a frock, and makeup is performative stereotyping, the ultimate in gender policing.

Well that's one way of admitting you got your ass handed to you on a plate, I suppose.

Now some might say that trans people promote sexist stereotypes by expressing traditional /feminine behaviours but don't cis women too?

Many people here - the majority, I think - support the rights of men who want to do so to wear dresses and makeup and behave in what might be called a traditional feminine way.

But men who do, do so as men and in spite of being male, rather than as an expression of being women, which they are not.

The common refrain we hear from GC talking points is 'trans people promote stereotypes by claiming the are the opposite gender'

I think you've misunderstood. Trans people co-opt, utilize and leverage stereotypes in order to claim - for the purpose of claiming - they are the opposite sex. That's a rather different matter. Look at me - I'm wearing a frock therefore I'm a woman. No, you're not. You're a man in a frock.

No, but hypocrisy will always be pointed out

You can choose to protect your peace - as I think debating over Facebook is a dreadful way of discussing anything. It’s a lot of people who want to have their, usually, unqualified say.

Or, you could post something along the lines of:

I have read your points very carefully. For me, The word woman is not neutral. It has meaning at the moment which carries legal protections. Once there is only male and biologically mixed spaces - female only spaces get erased completely. Once gone, it is not simple to get them back.

A test has unwittingly been carried out in the world of sport. It’s not actually gone very well and there has been a lot of moves to reinstate female only categories, quite quickly following allowing trans women into female sport. What sporting federations acted on- which was not welcoming transwomen to compete in their chosen female category was unacceptable, unkind and in uninclusive. However this theory didn’t work in practice. Biological differences do matter profoundly. It is a matter of safety and protection for all participants.

We don’t need to repeat the mistakes of the sporting world on a larger scale, as it’s possible to have male/female and open (mixed) categories. This allows us to retain accurate data and to affirm people’s personal worth without removing protective limits for biological females.

And then link it to one of those pictures of women’s sport where the reality of losing to transwomen which is visually striking.

Sorry. I just read your op again and see the main point is gender policing and traditional gender stereotypes. So probably my helpful suggestion above isn’t so helpful. I will move along now!!

I’m not brave and it’s easy to make excuses but I don’t think there is any value at all in responding to someone’s post on Facebook. So I wouldn’t think that you have to do that.

I do think that homophobia and transphobia have misogyny as one of their fundamental bases. The idea that men must behave and present in a certain way and that if they don’t, they are feminine, which is inherently wrong for men, is misogynistic. The idea that men presenting as women are in fact women is a different strand of the same misogyny.

What I’m grappling with at the moment is that I do feel a dislike of overt feminine presentation both in men and women, and scared of people thinking I present that way. That to me is yet another strand of misogyny, with an additional class basis, and I’m not quite sure how to think about it or handle it.

could you post the Venn diagram (picture incoming) to acknowledge there IS an overlap in terms of rejecting gender stereotypes, but there are also some significant distinctions between feminism and gender ideology.

@OtterlyAstoundingI know - it's intersectional groupiness. We all stand together etc your fight is my fight. They came for them, next they'll come for you blah blah blah

She seems lovely. And entirely correct.

Transphobia solves nothing, endangers women's rights and is a gateway drug for fascism.

If your fb friend thinks is how womanhood has to be performed then she's deluded. Womanhood is not clothes/heels/stockings/make up/jewllery etc

x.com/jan_murray/status/2060614040120889844?s=46

The only thing that's a gateway drug is a puberty blocker and hormones. I really hope you're not one of those parents.

the irony 😂😂😂😂😂. My sides!

The old “listen” when they mean “obey” slip there.

as described the OP’s friend has posted incoherent drivel, littered with logical fallacies.
It won’t be worth engaging with.

How on earth would you know if she's lovely or not? Just because she holds a believe that you agree with that doesn't automatically make her 'lovely'. Maybe she doesn't want to be lovely. Honestly this is such BS.

She also obviously isn't entirely correct either. Her logic is flawed as is your logic. Pretending the women's rights are bound up with biological men's rights is bizarre just because these men want to present and be treated as women. We can't protect a group, i.e. women, if we can't define it. What is woman? If it isn't defined by biological reality then what is it defined by? All we are left with is damaging gender stereotypes.

Many people here - the majority, I think - support the rights of men who want to do so to wear dresses and makeup and behave in what might be called a traditional feminine way.
But men who do, do so as men and in spite of being male, rather than as an expression of being women, which they are not.

Whilst women & men certainly share behavioural expressions, there's no denying some are more common to one sex than the other hence the GC desire to exclude men from women's private spaces because of an increased propensity to violence.

When trans women say they are women they are saying in essence their inclinations/behaviours are more associated to the more common/typical behaviours women than men & as such identify with them more rather than saying certain behaviours are sex exclusive as in stereotypical.

You can't have it both ways.

I think you've misunderstood. Trans people co-opt, utilize and leverage stereotypes in order to claim - for the purpose of claiming - they are the opposite sex. That's a rather different matter. Look at me - I'm wearing a frock therefore I'm a woman. No, you're not. You're a man in a frock.

So on one hand you affirm the sexes share behavioural expressions but on the other any shared expressions by trans people are 'fake'/copied & purely motivated by a desire to claim they are the opposite sex rather than an organic inclination that's commonly aligned with the opposite sex? That's incoherent.

This is what I mean about the GC blank slate blind spot. It's anti science in that it is not at all scientifically controversial that gendered expressions are influenced by genes & hormones. The idea that people don't have any intrinsic capacity for gendered coded expression is false as is the idea that common gendered behaviours don't exist as a result of this that has implications on how individuals might classify/associate themselves more with.

That's a whole lot of words used to say absolutely nothing of import. You also appear to be arguing against something that the OP isn't saying.

Feminism is ultimately only coherent as a movement if it is about and for the female sex. In service of the liberation of females, and equality and autonomy for females, who have always been oppressed and controlled due to our biology – the fact that we are weaker and therefore vulnerable, and that we are the sex who gestate the young.

All that nonsense you're chatting is entirely irrelevant.

The point you are missing is that if principles (as self determination) aren't applied consistently they aren't going to survive socially. It's like saying 'only our group deserves rights'. When principles are applied selectively, they lose their integrity and become mere preferences. This unequal application triggers a breakdown in social trust, fairness, and accountability ultimately causing the founding principles to fail in practice.

This.

Yes quite right, there should be no selective application of rights. Adults should be allowed to attend primary school, able bodied people should use the disabled parking spots, otherwise society will fall apart.

As per my previous post, it all comes down to the fundamental question which is that makes us male or female?

Yes, certain characteristics are more common in one sex but there is a huge amount of variance at a population level. This is true for virtually every human trait and it is often impossible to unpick the impact of socialisation, biology and how they intertwine. What we are often left with is a bunch of stereotypes which are harmful and counterproductive.

Hormones will have a biological impact on all of us and they will drive certain traits and behaviours in some cases but again there is huge variance. For example women with PCOS can have high levels of androgens but this doesn't make them men. It is ludicrous to suggest this. Even if a woman is highly aggressive and this is more commonly associated with males, it doesn't make this woman a man. It makes her a highly aggressive woman.

I think you are bordering on some rather radical suggestions that for example butch lesbians have male gender expressions and therefore should be considered men if you are to suggest that men in skirts that 'feel' like women should be considered women. It's non sensical and ultimately rooted in BS stereotypes. We have clear biological tests that in the vast majority of cases can definitively prove what sex you are. We don't need to manufacture other mechanisms because we don't like biological reality.

This is silly. The context here isn't about policy/how society should be structured as a result of a conflict in rights. The context is the right to self determination of identity.

Ah TERF double agent Bailey is back with his endless word salads

keep up the good work agent Bailey

Thanks for your personal interpretation of feminism, described as fact, here is mine.

First, the guiding principle of feminism is not self-determination, it is female liberation. Secondly, gender critical feminists do not necessarily subscribe to blank-slatism either. I think it is an open question within feminism of "what would we even be like?" without the confines of patriarchy. We simply don't know.
I also disagree with you when you say that:

"Another example of transphobia being rooted in misogyny is how much more trans women are demonised & dehumanised than trans men particularly as being motivated by sexual deviancy & predation".

We don't demonise and dehumanise, we simply call them men, and refer to male-pattern violence, which does not apply to female trans-identified persons. Also,

"'trans people promote stereotypes by claiming the are the opposite gender' but even if they didn't claim they were the opposite gender we all know that despite what a natal male who expresses feminine presentation calls themselves it would still be socially unacceptable but not so for a butch natal female".

Not on our watch mate, and I think you know that most feminists are perfectly happy for men to express themselves however (within the bounds of decency and respect), but we do ask that you stop telling us what a woman is, and that you've become one.

Finally, "Now some might say that trans people promote sexist stereotypes by expressing traditional /feminine behaviours but don't cis women too? Aren't they 'promoting' misogyny too? Or are they 'let off the hook' for 'not knowing any better' as hapless 'victims' lacking autonomy?".

No, we are just trying to live our lives as best we can. We object to the sexual objectification of women, evident in many TIMs presentation. Actual women range from a very strong feminine stereotype alignment, to none at all. Some women judge others for their appearance, some don't. Female liberation is a huge project, and although we wish it was moving faster, and we would all feel comfortable enough in ourselves to just be without pressure to conform, that's not reality. It's best not to blame women as a whole for that. Some womens security and survival depends on it.