James Murray on R4 just now - TWANW

[FlossieF]

New health secretary asked if he thinks TWAW- said he has changed his mind about this (as per Wes S) and supports single sex spaces on the basis of biological sex. As well he should, but still good to hear.

Is it a ladder-climbing move though, if everyone thinks Andy Burnham is about to take over? Could be he's read the polls and knows it's the popular opinion. But why can't someone change their mind? I know I did when I started to think critically about it. If he's thinking about the health brief, he's got some of the most obvious issues staring him in the face.

I also don't think he ever actually believed it - I don't think most people who say it really do.

It's a bit like the gabbled terms and conditions at the end of a radio ad, they have a mental footnote on the statement...

"Trans Women Are Women!"
<obviously they're not literally women I mean I wouldn't shag one lol but omg I'll be in so much trouble if I don't think this and I'm a nice person who is kind so yup twaw>

He's a politician and has done what is politically expedient to do. Unfortunately, what we need from our politicians is courage and integrity. The trans issue has been fantastic in allowing the public to see who meets the challenge. Alas, the result is very few. Most of them are cowards and liars.

I think a lot of people were in a lot of training sessions being told about how hard it is to be trans/queer etc. They fundamentally want people to be happy so they go along with the premise because that’s what people want and people will be happier.
“I’m a nice guy, look, I pay attention in training and I’m proud to be an ally!”.

They get emails complaining, and hear the shrill whispers of bigoted women (faintly, in the distance) and ignore them because 1. Women, 2. Shrill, 3. Their own work is important and busy and they mustn’t be interrupted by those shrill whispering bigots in the distance, getting all emotional about nothing, silly girls.

Then comes the Supreme Court decision, and perhaps some people they know and love or respect agree with it, so they have a little think and the penny drops.

Ah, well, no of course TW are not actual, literal Women! It’s a courtesy we extend to show we’re allies, but it doesn’t actually mean anything concrete….!

They believe it as a matter of principal more than a matter of science. And yes I do think he and other labour MP are silently true believers who are keeping their real feelings to themselves in order to get power

Did he actually say "I don't think transwomen are actually women" or did he just say "I wouldn' use that phrase anymore"?

To my mind he is being careful with his words and in a way which is politically expedient. However; I'll take that. In the long run it is most important that people stop employing mantras and slogans that have been created simply to enforce group think. Nobody really believes that men are women.

True believers in 'the faith', maybe, rather than in the idea that males are actually female.

This made me laugh - can they hear themselevs?

"Happy Pride month everyone :( Bigots do love being extra-shitty on our days"

They get the whole of June as their days now and nobody can say anything to support women in June? God, the entitlement.

Also this: "He's a Labour MP so of course he's going to be a transphobe."

Lesson to the woke, nothing is ever good enough for these entitled men and they will eventually turn on you, no matter how politically correct and TWAW you are. See also Russell T Davies.

I don't think it matters whether you believe it literally or not, the outcome is the same; you think transwomen should be in women's spaces. When you say TWAW, that is what you are saying you want.

It was "I wouldn't say that phrase any more." rather than TWANW.

It is VERY important that the Health Secretary says this when the leader of the third largest party in the Commons the Lib Dems is spouting nonsense. The fight is not over:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5536296-ed-davey-says-the-ehrc-code-has-failed-in-its-objective-and-calls-for-post-legislative-scrutiny-of-the-gra-ea-presumably-to-legally-allow-blokes-in-the-ladies?page=1

Also take the win. Celebrate it.

A bunch of brave people,mostly women, fought to get our politicians to say women were real when they were reluctant to do so. It was absurd it had to happen, but it is amazing it did. In many countries the truth cannot be spoken.

Lots more to do, but we are moving forward.

I think it does matter......because if the new health secretary is saying one thing publicly, and acting on it ( sex is biological and we need to protect single sex provisions), even if he secretly would prefer a different outcome it no longer matters.

100%

This is excellent news.

There's no way to know if he is lying, but I strongly suspect he is one of the labour MPs who secretly hated the SC ruling (same with Olivia Bailey). Just my opinion

It was "I wouldn't say that phrase any more." rather than TWANW.

The phrasing is intentionally vague. Means if society/law ever were to go pro-trans, he could revert to saying TWAW

I agree! But that no longer matters......what matters is that he now has to speak commonsense truth and implement the ruling.

I think it does matter if he secretly believes that TWAW. Imagine if Westminester elected 80% of ministers who all lied and said TWAW but secretly were pro-trans. Once in power, they could do change the law with those numbers on their side.

Labour are supposedly in power.

80% of Labour MPs did used to say TWAW - even if they didn't really believe it.

https://x.com/soniasodha/status/2061354427756196230

Paraphrasing interviewer: [You previously said that TWAW, have you changed your mind?]

'Yeah I have changed what I would say. I wouldn't say that phrase anymore ... I think that over the last few years a lot of us, myself included, have thought about this question in some detail. The SC obviously ruled very clearly that biological sex is what matters when it comes to the EA in determining single sex spaces. I believe sss shoudl be protected on the basis of sex, biological sex, while at the same time believing in dignity for trans people, recognising that sex and gender are different things ... single sex spaces within the NHS need to be protected on the basis of sex.

…which has been the core position on these boards for sodding years. Trans people should have dignity & respect, yes. Just not at the expense of women’s hard-won rights. There needs to be balance in law and policy, just as there is for rights between all groups in a liberal democracy.

It’s only been in the last few years that we’ve had some genuinely reactionary people trying to glom onto “sex realism” to make their anti-feminist, pro-authoritarian agendas seem more reasonable, which many of us pointed out over a decade ago was the likely outcome of TWA(literally)W.

The issue with any type of bullying/cult type behaviour is that it prioritises short term wins over the slower but more sustainable long term gain. There was this huge drive to force people to behave in a certain way, which was conducted with threats, intimidation and pillorising people like JK Rowling etc. to demonstrate their social power. Politicians have to be voted in and they were probably looking at the way other public figures had been treated and saw that the public didn't really care so they chose to take the side of transpeople.

This can only really work for a certain number of years before reality hits. Unless you were a woman who found themselves alone with a male in a female space you probably didn't think about it that often. I certainly didn't until I was in a changing room and a man walked in saying their were trans. I was terrified.
For most people I think the issues became really public, with the inclusion of Transwomen and DSD athletes in sports as there was a clear an undeniable advantage and transpeople saying that they were female and denying their advantage on television with no push-back.

I don't think any woman would deny that TW would be more unsafe than other men in male single sex spaces. Transwoman are constantly bullied in public and would be at an increased risk of physical violence so I could see how some of them were desperate, but I suspect a majority of the TW that were pushing for entry in the female spaces had other motives.

I didn't say 80% of labour currently believes TWAW. Although I do think a sizeable number of them decided to be quiet about their true feelings post the SC ruling.

I don’t think most politicians who decried that TWAW ever believed it so he’s probably just relieved that he now doesn’t have to lie for his career.

And I think it’s important to note that TWAW really was a thought-terminating cliche, ie many, many people did genuinely stop thinking. They didn’t “pretend,” they just embraced the cognitive dissonance as a sign that discomfort = challenging themselves to Be Kind.

They now have to think through how TWAW sits against the reality of biological sex, which breaks the thought-termination cycle. I’m sure there are still true believers out there, but as we’ve seen time and time again they can’t put together a reasonable argument. That’s why they’ve resorted to harassment & intimidation for so long. Stopping people from spelling out what TWAW actually meant for women was the only strategy they had.

I heard him. He was very unequivocal and I was delighted to hear it. I believe we’re at a very dangerous juncture: the SC ruling is not universally popular in parliament and the possibility of changing equality law is being openly spoken about. This is the last thing we want. Imagine being taken back to the state Australian women find themselves in! The more MPs who speak out in favour of reality the better. Whatever his motives, I’m glad he’s done so.

This is thanks to FWS and the Supreme Court ruling. They’ve earned a joyous spot in the telling of this story when we finally get through all of it.