James Murray on R4 just now - TWANW

[FlossieF]

New health secretary asked if he thinks TWAW- said he has changed his mind about this (as per Wes S) and supports single sex spaces on the basis of biological sex. As well he should, but still good to hear.

Male violence against transwomen would be closer to homophobia than misogyny, if it doesn't have its own word.

Such ignorant and violent men would be reacting against the transwoman being a non-conforming man, i.e. similar to how some gay men are non-conforming to stereotypes of masculinity, rather than reacting against the transwoman being a woman (because of course everyone can see they are not a woman).

I'm starting to see a bit more of what I am calling (in my own head) "Persuasive TRA." Now that they have lost everything that they bullied women for, some activists seem to be changing tack. Women must now fix the situation that TRAs have found themselves in. It seems to pivot on a sort of Be Kind 2.0.

I think women who have been in the game long enough will see through it, but we should be watchful. Stonewall is pivoting, activists are pivoting, and they will be preying on women's socialized kindness: watch for the destination and be on your guard.

I don’t think very many people really believe TWAW.

I suspect there is some relief at not having to keep pretending to believe this, but also fear of attack from backbenchers and activists.

We dont have to support TRAs - but there are probably a few trans people around who have been quietly getting on with their lives and not using single sex spaces if there is an alternative. We can and should support requests for more accessible provision.

Yeah, I used to think, 'Oh, the poor trans people - they need our support.' Now, after a decade+ of their nonsense, screaming, doxxing, violence and lies... well, they can fuck off and sort out their own issues. Women owe them nothing. Rather, they owe us - a massive apology would be a good start.

The only ones I still feel sorry for are those (many of them autistic) who were sucked into this as children and YAs.

I agree with this - providing of course that the accessible provision isn't at the expense of another group.

I think it would have been helpful if some of those "quiet transpeople" had spoken up against the rabid activists in the past 15 years, but I suppose they were just keeping their heads down, while activists took over women's spaces. Nothing to do with them, I guess. Well, they can now lift their heads up and start campaigning and fundraising for their mixed-sex, universal, accessible, whatever spaces. They had just better not start taking them from disabled people.

I'm not so sure that nobody believes it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1tt09hw/how_can_i_become_female/

What excellent news!

He’s a politician so no doubt there is advantage in him saying this - but to say it now is quite unexpected and fabulous.

Especially as there are MPs who will now start campaigning to have the EA changed to match Australia’s situation…. I think we may soon have a lot to thank Sal Grover for. If not for her case many MPs might be unaware of the implications which are now being played out in Oz and which they’ll have no desire to be caught up in prior to the next UK General Election.

My question is what is happening behind the scenes in Westminster that has allowed this shift?

The Health Minister publicly saying he’s changed his mind and MPs now accepting the EHRC Guidance - maybe the year of procrastination and recent enslaught of negative court cases/tribunals/publicity has got us to the tipping point?

What has changed in the last few weeks in the unions and Labour Party to get us here when they were all previously no debate. Even my rabid TWAW MP seems to be softening (only slightly) their messaging on this… when only in April they were still hard line…?

I understand that Trans people are really worried about being "outed" in the same way that gay people were because it would materially effect their ability to participate in life.

But if men go out in public wearing make up, wigs or women's clothes, they are out. Using a particular toilet or changing room doesn't "out" them - we all know they are men, and presumably trans.

Of course many think they pass, maybe because they are just deluded, or maybe because their friends tell them they pass and strangers, especially women, avoid saying anything.

Haha yes so much this 😂

I think the majority of TW don’t need to worry about being outed. I also don’t think they should worry about being more likely to be assaulted in the toilets than on the street. Women were always told a man didn’t need to go into the women’s toilets to assault or rape a woman, they’d do it anyway. Surely the same applies to TW? So no added risk to using the men’s.

Well quite.

And do ANY transwomen pass? I can't think of a single one in the public eye who does - despite these guys having the best access to surgeries and in some cases being puberty blocked.

Government ministers have to toe the party line - they get briefed in exactly what to say in these situations. So the government's current line on the gender stuff is that organisations must follow the Supreme Court ruling, and that trans people must be treated with respect, dignity, blah blah.

It would be mad, in my view, if the government said that organisations shouldn't follow the Supreme Court ruling. So he pretty much has to say that - unless the government decides it wants to reform the Equality Act, which would be very foolish, frankly.

And they have to include the line about trans people having dignity etc because they don't want to be seen by activists as transphobic, though fat lot of good it will do them.

He has zero integrity. Anyone saying they believed TWAW are lying toads and a traitor to women. We will never forget. But we will take today as another win and we won't berate the lying toad for his backflip when it suited him as we expect zero of such people.

And well done Justin Webb on getting that into the show today. Nicely done by him, a man of actual integrity who got castigated by the BBC for being honest in saying: “trans women, in other words males" I bet Justin was laughing today when he caught yet another lying toad ....

You can of course but no thanks. Women have managed to get closer to single sex spaces against backlash. Some of the opposition to women speaking up on here even.

Yes, of course, but whilst we cannot control people's thoughts and feelings what we can do is win the argument when it comes to policy and practice......which we have. Though we'll still need to deal with those recalcitrants who won't or who, only begrudgingly, comply.

I think most of the MPs who changed their opinion in light of the SC ruling are just biding their time until the law/society shifts so they can go back to being vocally TWAW. I frankly don't trust them and I woujld prefer they were not in parliament.

I don't expect James Murray gives a flying fuck whether TWAW or not. It's just good that (a) he feels able or even obliged to say this much and (b) he has realised that saying TWAW will make him and his party look like prize tits with the electorate. (And might even lead to a giant camper van materialising in his mother-in-law's driveway)

As for third spaces etc well the Equality Act 2010 already supports them. It's a hard habit to break but trans people need to start campaigning for their actual rights under the Equality Act instead of trying to bend the Act out of shape to suit themselves.

I have started a separate thread to discuss this phenomenon, if anyone cares to, so as not to derail here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5536989-be-kind-20-and-the-persuasive-tra

Yes.

Look what's happening in Australia, docs there tying themselves in knots. They're going through the whole shit show again and again. It's painful to watch. Especially painful as we know their law actually needs changing, rather than ours in the UK which 'simply' seemed to require 'clarification' for those at the back.

Words are cheap. These are crumbs.
His answer still leaves him wiggle room.
I wouldn’t trust him an inch.

The Labour party panicked and changed their tune at the point of the Isla Bryson/ Nicola Sturgeon fiasco.
Supporting mixed sex spaces leaves them open to similar humiliation.
And it would only be a matter of time.
Hence James Murray and his ‘reflection’.

Decent human beings with intelligence/ integrity understand automatically and instinctively why women and girls need single sex spaces.

I’ll believe them when I see words being repeatedly translated into action.

Couldn’t agree more.
Thank you. 🙏

A good start but he can have my respect only when he enforces single sex spaces in the NHS.

Bonus points for firing those deliberately ignoring the law