Fear of being called a Karen is making me less assertive.

[ModiglianisHat]

I'm a FWR regular but have name changed. Didn't know whether to put this here or in Chat, but thought I'd try here first.

I have noticed that in several situations recently I have been less assertive than than I would normally have been to avoid been labelled A Karen.

I'm 54 and a confident assertive women. I'm good at debating and deconstructing arguments, its partly my job, and I'm happy be confrontational when required.

But weirdly for me I have noticed that several times recently I have avoided confrontation to avoid looking like a Karen because I've become conscious this is what I'll be perceived as.

On one occasion I even asked my husband to deal with the issue (with a conveyancer where were not happy with the service) as I would be dismissed as a Karen.

I can't believe this is who I'm becoming. Has anyone else experienced this loss of confidence as a consequence of the Karen phenomenon?

Today I did challenge a solicitor and he took it very badly, and obviously thought I was obnoxious because I challenged the accuracy of what he was saying and picked him up when he misrepresented my position and interrupted me.

Partly I'm beginning to think: maybe I do need to rethink how I come across, but I think a man wouldn't be thinking this or worrying about it.

I think it's really the amount of Karen videos I've seen on social media that have made me think: That could be me. I am a Karen.

Am I alone?

Completely understand and agree x

Whether it is being a Karen or any other name, there is also the cumulative impact which can happen as you get older.

Based on the reality that most of us learn as we live our lives, it can seem that other people would prefer that you didn't in any way imply you probably know as much as they do if not more.

And I think that is about both ageism and sexism.

MSM as much as SM regularly have older women as someone to be shown to be out of touch, and some people are quite suprised that a woman of a certain age not only knows what she is talking about but knows what she wants.

So its the same old thing, women are more likely to be listened to if they adopt a conciliratory approach, etc..

So some days it can seem that all you are doing is having to be "asseretive" when all that you want is to have a discussion, exchange betwee equals.

So maybe just stick with sticking up for the ones that are worth wasting your energy on.

Stop worrying so much about what other people think of you. If you were to actually get called a Karen, say I'm not but I have worked with 3 Karen's, rattle of the names, and then ask the person who called you Karen which Karen she's confusing you with.
The best form of defence is attacked.
Personal growth is good, but stunting your growth to suit other people is bad. Don't do it.

A ‘true Karen’? Really?

Karen is like slut. The reason you get called it isn't about your behaviour, its about the other person's attitudes. And if a person calls women Karen/slut, then women moderating their behaviour to try to avoid it being directed at them, doesn't solve the issue.
All that happens is either some other woman gets it in your place, or the bar for getting called it changes. Because if they want to say it, they'll find an excuse. You can't appease them.

I totally get you OP.

It reminds me of the hot coffee warning - a women was ridiculed (and still is) but when you get into it she was in the right and badly injured. They have made getting the service we should have become seen as unreasonable.

I read Not Always Right so I see some real examples of idiocy and unreasonableness but these says we're treated as if everyone is.

I'm sorry, that was garbled. Basically though, I agree OP. It has been made harder to complain.

I have several good friends called Karen, I'm hacked off about it's use on their behalf. ( use that if it helps overcome your female socialisation not to fight for yourself - fight it for them)

It has been made harder to complain.

Thank you 💐 @Binglebong

That is how it feels.

They've made it harder for older women to complain. And it's not just me being weak and needing to try harder.

It is harder.

This is exactly what I thought of as well.

I agree @ModiglianisHat . I can’t believe how many posters piled on to rebuke you for using the term when it was clear you weren’t.

I'm sorry you feel this way but I honestly can't relate at all. I don't give a fuck if people call me names for standing up for what is right/women's rights etc. I'm old now but was taught this as a child "sticks and stones......"

In my youth the insult de jour from weak men for women who talked back (or worse, didn't fancy you) was bitch. It could be quite intimidating for small women like me. Karen seems rather tame but the same vibe applies.

It isn’t about whether you give a fuck or not; that’s not really what this is about.

If someone does some shit work for me and I complain I might get ‘yeah alright Karen.’ I’m not taken seriously and I’m treated as a joke or a stereotype. So I’d be more likely to tell DH to complain because that would be listened to and taken seriously.

I dunno. I regard myself as a fairly average older woman who is entitled to an opinion like anyone else. I expect to be treated the same as everyone else in terms of being able to assert myself or whatever. I think because I tend to assume that others will view me the way I view myself then it never enters my head that I might be judged as a "Karen" or whatever. I refuse to let that shit clutter my head up. If someone wants to regard me as a "Karen" then that's their problem not mine. If I get less favourable treatment because I am an older woman then I will stick up for myself.
Just don't take this shite on, OP. We have an active choice about these things.

I get it OP. Yes, it makes me wobble sometimes. Then I ask myself how highly I value the opinion/judgement of someone who uses a lazy, derogatory insult as a way to shut down a debate. And why they do it.
Or to put it another way, I'd feel shitter about calling someone a Karen than being called one.

Just to add, without saying it has any name attached to it, I am finding many members of the NHS really dismissive as I get older.

A sort there, there dear, it will all be alright, and all I want is a straight forward fact based discussion.

edited to add that if you do argue (make a valid point) with your GP or consultant it can end up that somehow you end up seeing some locum who just goes I see from the notes is says .... and that's the end of it.

I think I understand @ModiglianisHat

Put aside the terminology for a minute

For me, the issue is that being direct is often mistaken for being aggressive. Obviously, you can be direct and polite. But people are even interpreting that as aggression.

Does that seem like a better summary of how you're feeling? I'm feeling like that as well.

It's ironic because in many situations I feel as if I'm doing overkill on the politeness. In work and other practical matters, it can take a while to establish enough of a rapport that people understand that being direct is not the same as being aggressive.

I think we are in a strange cultural space and any deviation either way can be construed badly. I think it stems from the fact that so many people are reading so much into the tiniest vocal inflection.

I would say the misinterpretation is a side-effect of loss of social skills. Those of us who know how to be normal are now feeling abnormal. Or maybe normal has changed so much that we don't know how to navigate it.

I agree 'karen' is used as a silencing tool I know this because I use it to embarrass my husband into being less publicly entitled by calling him one & so do my children. 'Karen' isn't just about being assertive but entitled to something you are not & throwing your weight around to do so kinda like 'don't you know who I am?'. It's not necessarily a sexist term because men get called loud & entitled too & like I said making it 'gender neutral' promotes what this term really means.

Should some people be embarrassed into silence? Shame has its social utility because It motivates individuals to adhere to shared moral norms, deters anti-social behaviour and prompts people to repair damaged relationships to prevent social ostracism.

I got called a Karen for asking a barista to remake my drink because another customer had tried to take it, sipped it and realised it wasn’t theirs. Clearly my fault because I am in my late 40s whereas the sipper-grabber was a teen who clearly didn’t understand how queues work 🙄

The karen thing is so tedious.

I hate the use of the name Karen to silence women. I find it incredibly offensive.

My understanding of a Karen isn't just "someone who makes a complaint" it's about how you make said complaint and if it's justified or petty.

Asking to see the manager in a polite manner without drawing attention to yourself is fine- no one will notice and if they did no one is going to care. However standing on a table and screeching to see the manager while throwing your food around is being a Karen (and people will take their phones out to record).

If your food isn't cooked properly that's a justified complaint. If your complaint is because the customers at the next table are talking in a foreign language then that's being a Karen.

HTH

It doesn’t really ‘help’, no. Talk about twisting it round to us. ^Well, if you just complained nicely no one would call you a Karen.*

I think OP has already said maybe Karen was the wrong word.

I understood it is about the fact that even being polite and straight forward OP is starting to feel that others are just categorising her as someone who thinks too much of herself and should just stay quietly agreeing with every one else.

I do think it is a combination of sexism and ageism.

And it is wearing to constantly feel that other people are disconcerted by you, or think you shouldn't be listened too. ie just be a quiet compliant older woman nodding along saying "that's nice dear".

Only if you care what other people think about you.

Let go of that, and it's really really easy.

I can be very argumentative but no one has ever called me a Karen. If they did I would use my teacher voice to make fun of them in a way that made them cringe. Bring it on.

The OP has already said the word Karen probably isn't the right one.

So answering about Karen's isn't actually answering the issue OP is posting about.