Hamas sexual violence on 7th October attack. Content warning.

[ArabellaScott]

A new investigation has shared more information on details of Hamas' atrocities.

I do urge caution when reading, and don't if you are feeling fragile.

'An independent, Israeli investigation has published harrowing details of "systematic, widespread" sexual violence by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups during the attacks on 7 October 2023, and against hostages.
The 300-page report concludes that rapes, sexual assault and sexual torture were intended "to maximize pain and suffering".
While the UN and others have published reports on sexual violence during the attacks – in which about 1,200 people were killed and 251 taken hostage – this is the most comprehensive.
It draws on 430 filmed interviews with survivors and witnesses, more than 10,000 photographs and videos filmed by attackers, and official records and material from attack sites.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgz9k7pzggo

October 7 was savage and evil. The level of hatred and sexual violence is unfathomable. I don't know how anyone can defend it or excuse it.

What was the purpose of your post? This thread is about sexual violence committed by Hamas and other groups from Gaza on October 7th.
There are plenty of threads on the CITME board about what happened as a result of that attack.

It wasn't an 'army', it was residents of Gaza, it was planned by Hamas, those who invaded Israel were using Arabic to Hebrew translations to tell people exactly what to do. ( I'm not saying what those instructions were because it's disgusting). They filmed themselves, they phoned home to tell family members what they were doing. This wasn't an out of control Army, this was planned sexual violence which was supported or tolerated by 'ordinary' people in Gaza.

That a pretty horrific thing to accuse someone of. Of course I'm not opposed to accountability for war crimes. I want Hamas to be held accountable for the crimes detailed in The Civil Commission's report (the one some consider "not independent" enough).

You could have stated that you believe the UN should have oversight of all instances of widespread sexual abuse but you've only suggested Israel is uniquely untrustworthy. Why?

I don't think a further UN investigation is appropriate, or necessary. I think we should believe victims, especially when they, and their abusers, provide copius amounts of evidence.

In what way is Israel not a functioning state?

Why would the British army invade Israel? What an odd post.

My dear God. The quote you post in defence of yourself actually undermines your defence.

The quote you post says systematic widespread sexual violence was used by Hamas AND other gangs. Here is the quote you posted "An independent, Israeli investigation has published harrowing details of "systematic, widespread" sexual violence by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups during the attacks on 7 October 2023, and against hostages.

You have twisted that to this (direct cut and paste of your own words):
so rape most likely occured the question was, was it by authorised systemic design or not & given all sorts of violent gangs from Gaza

Firstly, your 'most likely' comment isn't even a recognition that rape is evidenced to have taken place. Secondly you refuse to accept the findings of systematic sexual violence. And you twist the finding that systematic violence was committed by Hamas AND other groups, to try to present this as some sort of get clause for Hamas that the rape was just by some other bad guys.

The quote you provide is so illustrative of the desperate twisting, distorting and lying that antizionists use to undermine Israelis as victims and antizionists like Hamas as barbaric.

That you actually give a quote that utterly undermines you position and don't even see this, speaks volumes for the complete absence of honesty and integrity of antizionists like you. You are so desperate to see what you want to see you can't even correctly read the words in front of you.

That a pretty horrific thing to accuse someone of. Of course I'm not opposed to accountability for war crimes. I want Hamas to be held accountable for the crimes detailed in The Civil Commission's report (the one some consider "not independent" enough).

And they are more likely to be held accountable if a fully independent investigation takes place that can't be seen to have taken place if conducted internally by ANY country.

You could have stated that you believe the UN should have oversight of all instances of widespread sexual abuse but you've only suggested Israel is uniquely untrustworthy. Why?

In no words did I suggest Israel was uniquely untrustworthy.

In what way is Israel not a functioning state?

They routinely violate international law.

It’s ill-making. No words really.

Firstly, your 'most likely' comment isn't even a recognition that rape is evidenced to have taken place.

False. I repeatedly said the rapes would have taken place even without the report because of historical precedent.

Secondly you refuse to accept the findings of systematic sexual violence.

That combatants were ordered & planned to commit rapes in a systematic fashion by their superiors is controversial. Please point to the confirmation of this evidence (that wasn't elicited under torture). Its exactly because of these 'methods' that independent investigations are necessary.

And you twist the finding that systematic violence was committed by Hamas AND other groups, to try to present this as some sort of get clause for Hamas that the rape was just by some other bad guys.

Your words with embellishments not mine. The facts are both were present & both were likely involved of which I stated.

The quote you provide is so illustrative of the desperate twisting, distorting and lying that antizionists use to undermine Israelis as victims and antizionists like Hamas as barbaric.

I'm sorry but I have no control over facts undermining your preferred narrative. All I did was repeat what was in the report. That you wish to read more into that is on you.

Agree. Sadly, it’s not the first time I see comments like that when it comes to attacks against Jews and especially Israelis - 'ooohh, it is sad of course, but so many bad things are happening everywhere all the time, and what about group x/y/z, and look over there, and why do the Jews keep talking about what’s happening to them anyway.

I’m trying to see what place a man has on the feminist boards , on a thread specifically about the horrendous violent rapes and attacks against women on October 7th,
Why do men feel it’s their place to come here and then try to do ‘Whataboutery’ with regards to Hamas and their horrendous actions?

These men wore body cams for one reason only -to torture the Jewish families of the people they raped and murdered and kidnapped.
They are not ashamed to show the world what they did because there will ALWAYS be left wing women and men who support them because they are so antisemetic they will support anything Hamas do.
The weekly hate marches show this.
Convicted Muslim terrorists can stand for election in the uk, over 100k people can descend on a sleepy Suffolk village for some strange Muslim meeting the types of which are banned in Saudi Arabia & other Muslim countries because they are so hardline -but the UK government allows this while antisemetic feeling and behaviour grows in Britain, in a place where we promised the Jews they would be safe. I’m so so ashamed of my country.

I cannot read all of the reports. I’m too much of a coward. I would torture myself if I read the horror of what those women experienced simply because they were female Jews.
The people who support a terrorist organisation should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

The discussion moved into discussing people's motivation for posting as they did. 'Jew hatred' etc. I didn't think that was at all a fair way to surmise their motives given the consequences of the war since then, so wanted to contextualise that. You may believe that to be wrong, but why not criticise rather than go for instant censorship.

Any right thinking person abhors the sexual violence of Hamas the blame for which lies squarely with the Hamas
criminals and not the wider Gazan and Palestinian people.

From the endorsements at the start of the report:

“Hamas committed atrocities on October 7 that must be written into the darkest pages of human history as one of the worst examples of barbarism against women and innocent people. As a Muslim woman, as an American, and as the leader of the first Muslim women’s civil rights organization in America, I bear witness with absolute moral clarity: Hamas’s crimes were not an act of resistance, but acts of evil, sexual brutality, torture, humiliation, and murder against the people of Israel. The crimes Hamas inflicted upon women were an assault on human dignity itself and a stain on the conscience of the world. No cause, no grievance, and no ideology can ever justify such savagery. We must name Hamas, we must tell the truth, and we must ensure that these horrors are never denied, never erased, and never forgotten.”
Ms. Anila Ali
President of American Muslim Multi-Faith Empowerment Council (AMMWEC)

I don't agree with you. Hamas is Gaza and Gaza is Hamas. No one has tried to form an opposition. 'Ordinary' Gazans were out celebrating in the streets of Gaza on the 7th October. They knew what was happening in real time. People in the UK were also out on the 7th October celebrating the 'intifada'.
I don't know what they thought Israel would do in response, whether they thought that sacrificing themselves after the event was worth it. But, essentially the invasion was supported by huge numbers of Gazans. I followed it on Twitter at the time. The comments were horrific.

I do agree that rape is a widespread weapon of war but I did read the whole report (through my hands) and it made me think about the use of rape in other conflicts, and the differences. Not that there is or ever should be a hierarchy, but the motivations and the type of brutality vary. For example, in Bosnia there were forced impregnations of Bosniak Muslim women, in Rwanda intentional HIV transmission. In both conflicts and in others there was a systematic approach to rape that was designed to bind together the militants. On October 7 there is a necrophiliac quality which I don’t think has been witnessed anywhere else.

None of this is nice to think or talk about but I personally think it’s important to know the specific character of rape and sexual violence in conflicts, to bear witness if nothing else.

But you are playing it down. Most people are unaware of this. Netanyahu wouldn't allow the UN anywhere near an investigation. They cannot be trusted to be impartial where Israel is concerned. Look at the makeup of the UN - around 50 are Muslim majority countries.

Some of us don’t think that, and see the publication of the report and the detailed citation of the evidence as important in itself in understanding just how deep misogyny runs in all cultures around the world. The systematisation and condoning of sexual violence and brutality in evidence here is undeniable. These aren’t just some rogue actors who happened to break away from central command one day - unless you know different? I haven’t seen any explanation for how these Hamas (and other) men were so prepared for and committed to sexual violence and yet the other Hamas fighters, leaders etc were not aware, involved? Maybe you have.

And many did and still do try to dismiss and undermine as on this thread and many other posts, plus SM generally.

Do you also think everyone in Gaza supports the rape, burning, beheading, disembowelllng and other atrocities that day? Do you think everyone in Russia cheers on the murder of Putin’s enemies (and innocent bystanders)? Are all Americans fans of Trump? So facile, your days must be very hard.

The investigation was carried out by an independent non-profit and contains testimony from survivors who are all over the media speaking for themselves. They are not the Israeli government and anyone who has difficulty believing them because they are Israeli is very easily dismissed as anti-Semitic. I guess that’s you.

So you also agree Iran is not a fully functioning democracy? I mean, if you’re upset at Israel, you’ll be upset ab them too right? Where is your outrage over how Iran treat protesters?

Again, what did your reply have to do with ‘people’s motivation for posting as they did'?
October 7th happened before the war that followed (obviously) and the thread is about what happened on that day.
Can violence against Jews, the horrendous attack of October 7th, be discussed without jumping onto how what happened next was worse?

Any right thinking person abhors the sexual violence of Hamas the blame for which lies squarely with the Hamas
criminals and not the wider Gazan and Palestinian people.

Plenty of people denied that sexual violence happened on October 7th, including some on this forum.
And no, the blame does not lie squarely with Hamas. Many civilians and/ or other groups joined the attack (3,800 members of Hamas’s elite Nukhba fighters, 2,200 civilians and other fighters according to Wikipedia).

And yet there are people here saying that the report cannot be trusted because the Israeli government is ‘shrewd’. Ergo dismissing the testimony of the survivors, witnesses and investigators, the morgue staff, the AV evidence Hamas proudly gathered and transmittted. If Gazan people can be separated from Hamas, why can Israeli people not be separated from their government too?

‘Rape has always happened so nothing to see here’. Wow, just wow. I hope every single one of those Hamas psychopaths died or dies a horrible, painful death.

Shame on you @EmilyinEverton* *
Israeli victims are forbidden from even talking about the horrors inflicted, lest they be called shrewd.
Israeli victims have been bravely forthcoming in talking about the horrors they suffered including many young women, e.g. Amit Soussana, Arbel Yahoud and British victim Emily Damari among them. There is also a video The Children of October 7 available on Youtube.