Hamas sexual violence on 7th October attack. Content warning.

[ArabellaScott]

A new investigation has shared more information on details of Hamas' atrocities.

I do urge caution when reading, and don't if you are feeling fragile.

'An independent, Israeli investigation has published harrowing details of "systematic, widespread" sexual violence by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups during the attacks on 7 October 2023, and against hostages.
The 300-page report concludes that rapes, sexual assault and sexual torture were intended "to maximize pain and suffering".
While the UN and others have published reports on sexual violence during the attacks – in which about 1,200 people were killed and 251 taken hostage – this is the most comprehensive.
It draws on 430 filmed interviews with survivors and witnesses, more than 10,000 photographs and videos filmed by attackers, and official records and material from attack sites.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgz9k7pzggo

What historians and genetics generally agree on

• Most modern research supports that:Palestinian Arabs, like other Levantine populations, show substantial continuity with ancient Levantine peoples.
• That continuity includes ancestry shared with ancient Israelites/Judeans, but also with many other ancient groups in the region.
• Over time, identity shifted mainly through language (to Arabic) and religion (to Islam/Christianity) rather than large-scale population replacement.

So there was no invasion of the Levant from Arabia by nomadic tribes at the beginning of the 8th century and those invaders forcibly converted much of the population?

I'm not sure of the direct political relevance to now, but here goes for the history

The Levant’s transition from Christianity to Islam was a gradual, centuries-long process rather than an immediate forced conversion.

• The Starting Point (630s): Under Byzantine rule, the region was overwhelmingly Christian, with a minority Jewish population and virtually no remaining pagans.
• Evidence of Slow Transition: For centuries post-conquest, Christian chronicles, continuous church records, and high jizya tax revenues prove massive Christian populations remained. Arabic replaced Aramaic very gradually through cultural assimilation
• Drivers of Conversion:Conversion was driven by systemic pressures rather than violence. Dhimmi status imposed legal restrictions and taxes, while social, political, and economic advancement was effectively closed to non-Muslims.

And for a parallel non-Levantine case Egypt is a useful comparison

• Arabic sources suggest it remained majority Christian until roughly the 13th-14th century, nearly 700 years after conquest

• The Coptic language survived as a living language until around the 17th century.

Oddly bloodless rewriting of the Arab conquest spreading West out of Arabia.

No one said it was bloodless, but of course neither were the Crusades, the Christian reconquista of Spain and many, many imperial adventures around the world.

The more pertinent point is to refute the attempt to use history to deny the legitimacy of the Palestinian Arab population, who descend from the ancient Levantine peoples, including in part the ancient Israelites and Judeans.

All just feels like a massive derail to be honest, neither the ancient history of the region or genetics seem relevant to why a bunch of monstrous men purposely attacked men, women, and children in ways that are worse that the most horrific fiction.

Intentionally or otherwise, it is taking the focus away from the vile acts committed on October 7th, as detailed in this report, and the refusal by many, especially those who claim to stand for women and minorities, to accept this.

It has, at least, been encouraging to see that the vast majority of posters are horrified by what happened.

Palestine was just an area of land populated by many different groups, it was never a cohesive people or nation.
During the Ottoman rule which takes us to the 20th century. Palestine was not a single, isolated political entity. It was governed as part of the broader province of Syria (Bilad al-Sham), primarily under the Damascus Eyalet.
I don't think anyone is denying Arabs lived in Palestine. If they had accepted a two state solution they would have been able to build a better life for their children.
Anyway this thread is about the use of sexual violence on October 7th. for which there is no justification.

Why are there so few Christians now?

Just seen this in the Times. It speaks volumes that the venue hasn't been named

Nova Exhibition London opens at an east London venue on May 20; www.novaexhibition.com

This week an immersive exhibition commemorating the festival opens in London. It is titled 06:29AM — The Moment Music Stood Still, referring to the time the music stopped as terrorists unleashed their carnage on more than 3,000 young people from around the world who had gathered on a holiday weekend to dance.
https://www.thetimes.com/article/cd395b0a-89b2-4ec5-9b0c-2a130eb60c1c?shareToken=6958953e310ec85b783ce0af0df5868c

It has, depressingly, become par for the course for many Jewish events in the UK. Everything from charity comedy shows to rallies against antisemitism to events to mourn and remember those that were lost.

I hope people still make the effort to attend. I imagine it will be a difficult experience, but an important one.

Haven’t read the whole thread, apologies.

Sexual violence is often used in war.
Rape is bad always. Not allowing food, water, medical aid, electricity, shelter, burials, schooling etc etc to a population that cannot go anywhere is sickening evil. Even if you have suffered a terrible terrorist attack.

Feminism, is not just protesting the sexual abuse of woman in armed conflicts, but the systematic destruction of children and women’s futures by the military machine of the state.

I was horrified of what happened in October 7th and even more horrified nowadays when the repercussions of that extraordinary breach of security of the supposedly greatest state of the art border in the world has lasted over two years of war and almost 76,000 deaths in Gaza, plus 2,000 + Israeli soldiers + terror in the West Bank.

Israel’s state is capable of as much cruelty and evil as any terrorist organisation. I read and heard accounts by ex Israeli military that were suspicious of how the Hamas attack was handled. Recently has been a video released about sexual violence in Israeli’s prisons. In my opinion Israel under Netanyahu has became a rouge state with right wing citizens becoming so emboldened as to kick nuns on the street, just because they can.

The lies Israel has told to defend it’s actions, hiding their crimes when killing journalists, paramedics, world kitchen workers. Not letting international media in to report. You need to take what Israelí government and associated media say with a large pinch of salt! And a big stomach.

Hind Rajab, the six-year-old Palestinian girl, killed in her family's car was riddled with 335 bullets by Israeli forces and the ambulance crew that wanted to help her. One lost of life is not more or less valuable than another. I’m afraid many Jews are as horrified of what a so called democratic government can do to a ghettoed population, as they were of the violence and sexual attacks on 7th October.

On a more mundane note, i missed Eurovision. Did Israel won the popular vote again?

Don't bother reading the thread just have the decency to read the report.

Feminism, is not just protesting the sexual abuse of woman in armed conflicts, but the systematic destruction of children and women’s futures by the military machine of the state.

Feminism is also about protesting against terrorist groups and religious zealots who oppress their own women and children using them as human shields while they hide in tunnels.

What I came back to post was:

Nova exhibit sign in London removed at police request over antisemitism, terror concerns
Itamar Eichner | published:18:51
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The main sign for the Nova exhibit in London, which was hung in recent days as part of preparations for the official opening, was removed at the request of London police due to concerns about antisemitic incidents, public disorder and protests before the exhibit opens. According to sources involved in the details, local police requested to minimize early exposure of the exhibit's exact location as much as possible, fearing attempts to organize extremist protests or security incidents around the site even before it opens to the public. Accordingly, it was decided that the sign will be reinstalled only on the day of the exhibit's official opening during the coming week.

I am so ashamed of this country,

Agreed. The whole of @Waxingmoons post minimises what happened on October 7th and seeks to blame Israel only for both the initial attack and the war.

I don't see anything feminist about saying "Sexual violence is often used in war" so dismissively, particularly on a thread about the extreme scale and depravity of the sexual violence committed by Hamas.

I was horrified of what happened in October 7th and even more horrified nowadays when the repercussions of that extraordinary breach of security of the supposedly greatest state of the art border

Ah so. Once again it was Israel's fault that women were raped and people were murdered. What could Hamas do? Were they expected to not take advantage of a poor quality but very expensive security system?

Instead of a novella you could have just written 'they had it coming'. Same message either way.

Absolutely. People keep saying October 7th didn’t happen in a vacuum (i.e. is somehow understandable), yet Israel’s retaliation is somehow uniquely evil, horrendous and outrageous.
I notice how pp summarises the horrific attacks on the Israelis as 'rape' which is 'bad' (but something that always happens in wars), but when it comes to Israel’s response she takes the time to list the various wrongdoings which are ‘sickening evil'.
It’s always the same.

Oh dear, it is like we are blinded to evil because the victims are these or those.

I condemn Hamas. I condemn Netanyahu and its supporters. Both as inhumane as the next towards its neighbours, just different size of bullies.

I despise rape always and the killing of innocents.

Hamas was helped into power by Netanyahu. The world will be a better place without power like theirs. Yes

What do you want to hear? That they are animals? Yes some are in my opinion, just as much as the soldiers that kill vulnerable girls waiting for help because they know they will be no consequences.

I will not say more.

Ironic to claim others are unable to see evil because of the identity of the victims while also saying it must be the Israelis own fault they were raped and murdered.

So sick of people that see themselves as "good", when all they are doing is defending terrorists and rapists because they hate Israel.

Well, politicians can barely bring themselves to mention Jews on Holocaust Memorial Day.

I see that @Waxingmoons has bugger all to say about Egypt closing its border with Gaza.

As ever, they get a free pass and all the blame is dumped on the Jews Israelis.

We must use the same language for brutality, no matter who does it, but also recognise that the power some actors have is greater (and therefore the type of consequences different). The language is different but should be no less strong. The systematic rape, dehumanisation and desecration by Hamas and others on Oct 7 was terrorism, pure and simple. Criminal acts by non-state actors. Many actions by individual IDF soldiers, or orders by the Israeli government, are also war crimes. These are not less dehumanising or devastating, they are different and must be called by their name. The people who suffer are never those in power, always those men, women and children who have no power and only wish to live their lives.

Were they non state actors? Is that how they would describe themselves? As I understand, Hamas were voted in. They may not be recognised as a state for political reasons, but they surely consider themselves one.

How come no one mentions the hostages. Hostage taking and using civilians as human shields are both war crimes. The hostages were tortured, and raped.
There is no equivalence between the actions of Hamas and Israel's response to this premeditated and criminal attack on their territory.

The Dresden defence : The Nazi defendents tried to claim that the bombing of Dresden killing civilians was also a war crime (they did it to). Nuremberg judges explicitly rejected this defense, creating a landmark distinction in international law. They ruled that bombing a city for tactical or military purposes—where civilian casualties are an unavoidable corollary of war—is entirely different from systematically rounding up and executing unarmed men, women, and children.

Israel "arrest and detain" (kidnap) Palestinians en masse. They've just kidnapped two activitists nowhere near Israel, in open, international, water.

Hamas returned all hostages, alive and dead. Israel returned hundreds of bodies in unrecognisable condition - nameless. Some just approximate weight of a body.

The surviving "prisoners" of Israeli detention have reported rape and torture. It's been documented by video in the same way that the October 7th attacks are.

Hamas have committedsome of the same horrors as Israel. But on a much, much, smaller scale.