Male "autism" and abusive behaviour

[SpiderPlantBoogie]

Hello. I'm posting this here as 1) it's my most usual stomping ground (under different names) when I go on MN, 2) I think it does relate to some of what we talk about on this board, and 3) I also don't want to cause testerical shouting, and trust the intelligence and nuance of the women here.

I've long been concerned about the massive expansion of "autism" (including self-ID autism) and am glad we're talking about it more. (Along with lots of other psychiatric categories, but that's another story). I'd also like to think/talk/read a bit more about the overlap of abusive behaviour (including coercive control) - often but not exclusively from men - with "autism". The leaps from "I like things a very particular way" to "...and so you have to tow the line or I will make sure you suffer", and from "I struggle with people" to "...and so don't expect me to think about anyone other than myself", seem much narrower than I would like. I'm pretty close IRL to a number of people this seems to apply to, and it can clearly devastate other people's (often primarily women's) lives.

Obviously (I would hope we all agree) we don't want to contribute to more discrimination against people with disabilities. But with these particular disabilities (which often stretch traditional definitions), that "always the victim" rhetoric is potentially so dangerous.

I'm sure this must have come up before. Can anyone suggest things I might read on the topic?

PS I am, of course, absolutely not talking about all people with autism diagnoses here. Also this probably doesn't apply much to people with clear intellectual disabilities; probably more to the new-style diagnoses than the more obvious difficulties which would have been diagnosed even decades ago.

wrong tow - meant toe of course

I was researching re this recently, personality disorders can run alongside autism.

Also personality disorders can be misdiagnosed as autism/ADHD

I would say my father has autism. My son has it, my daughter has it, my husband has it so I’m pretty familiar with it.

I would say my father exhibits a lot of the behaviour you are describing.

My husband, daughter and son are polar opposite very thoughtful and caring, so hopefully the kids got my husband’s traits not my fathers.

I think it is just that autism has aspects that affect a person’s personality so my father is lacking in both cognitive and affective empathy, he is controlling and very rigid as a personality and when you put the ASD on top of that it basically magnifies these traits.

Any population is going to include people with personality disorders and behaviour disorders. The autism community is going to be no different, and you can have a problem with antisocial and harmful behaviours or harming your own access and equality without this being a prejudice against Autism. As with trans and everything else, making any group free from equality of scrutiny and expectation leads nowhere good as we well know.

I do think for those who have these additional issues, that differences such as high emotion things becoming a special interest with intense energy, flexibility of thinking and difficulty seeing other people's needs or emotions as relevant or perceiving them as threatening when they conflict with a personal agenda probably don't help.

Autism is a neurotype rather than psychatric illness.

I have skin in the game here. One child with a diagnosis and another one probably autistic. I strongly suspect I am too. I don’t see the point in having an assessment for myself. Although we’re all of the high intelligence, high masking girl type.

The ‘old diagnosis’ as OP puts it would now mostly be considered to be autism and developmental delay rather than just autism.

The definition of disability is often considered to be a long term impairment which has a negative impact on the person life. We know that autistic people without an intellectual disability people in the UK will die on average 13 years earlier than neurotypicals. The data for autistic people with intellectual disabilities is much worse. It’s clear that autism is a disability.

Between autistic and neurotypical people there is a double empathy problem in that the way autistic people express empathy is often not viewed as empathetic by neurotypical people.

OP I understand what you’re saying and I’m interested in other people’s responses.

I am super interested in this also. It is a happily accepted fact that people who struggle with addiction or their mental health are more likely to be autustic (either diagnosed or not) and after working for a DV charity for some time I feel a lot of behaviour that is described to me about perpetrators could fit with autism. I have children with autism so TOTALLY understand the need to be sensitive about how this is discussed (i.e. we aren't discriminatory), but to me the issue is around how we teach autistic people about relationships. I'm not sure there's much out there about it but I am considering doing a dissertation on it for my masters!
This will be so bloody outing to anyone who knows me 😂

Both my ex and i strongly suspect he has autism, and i think more specifically PDA.

It was exhausting and oppressive living with him, and whilst i don't think he actively sought to be controlling, he ended up doing so through being reclusive (and work from home) - i could never get away from him unless i went out, and never parent DD independently of him at home. Also his inability to communicate meant he wasn't transparent with finances, and couldn't 'see' the things i spent on irregularly that add up (houseware, DD clothes and sports equipment, school holiday activities etc) these things simply didn't register, and couldn't be discussed reasonably.

So whilst it wasn't typically or maliciously abusive it eventually had a really negative impact on my mental health, and i think for him, trying to function in a relationship with PDA had negatively impacted his mental health.

So you don't want to encourage hate against the disabled, unless they're autistic males.

I'm with you on self-diagnosis, but that's a manipulative trick that has nothing to do with autism whatsoever.

While we're talking about it, the Stockwell enquiry made it clear that Axel Rudakubana's autism was used by various agencies to excuse his violent behaviour. Yet statistics show that autistic people are more likely bullied, abused or rejected and aggressive behaviour is a symptom of extreme distress, which it seems logical to assume could be caused by being bullied, abused or rejected.

I agree it’s really hard to talk about sensitively.

There is an element of compatibility, I think. DH appeared coercive and controlling to me at various stages of our marriage. We recognised the autism possibility when DS was being investigated for ND. That has made life so much easier for us both. I know how to point out he’s being rigid and it’s impacting me. I can challenge him more easily because he can understand what I’m referring to now, rather than feeling attacked and criticised and so biting back.
Had I been more assertive and less needy/people pleasing, I may have either pushed back more effectively in the first place, or possibly simply left.
He never attempted to stop me leaving- or indeed, to get me to stay 🤣. In terms of it having a disabling impact on his life, well yes. But much less so because he has me. Our kids are well aware that if I die first, he’s going to need careful watching. Apart from anything else the hoarding will accelerate.

What I’m saying is that in different circumstances the same traits can have a different impact.
Equally a friend told me when I first knew him that his ex was abusive. I obviously accepted what he said. He’s since been diagnosed as ND, with two severely impacted ND DC with learning difficulties. His ex wife seems lovely, and think he must have been an absolute arse to live with, in those circumstances. I’ve seen behaviour since which I wouldn’t have tolerated well, had I been his wife. Extraordinary selfishness, passing under the ‘I can’t tolerate…’ banner.

In my extended family, there are a lot of people who have cut out others from their life, each accusing the other of abuse. There have been lawyers’ letters, police involvement etc. There’s formally diagnosed ND all over the place.

Gosh, I’ve rambled.

Basically neurodiversity can be bloody hard to live around, for all involved. It can absolutely impact the way abuse impacts.

Are men getting away with abusive behaviour under the guise of ND?
I think, only the ones who actually are ND.
Are some ND people impacting their partners (and parents and children) negatively, almost as much as if they were intentionally abusive? Absolutely.

Are all people with autism impacting their families negatively? Absolutely not! Many are very happily matched with compatible partners and each meet the other’s needs.

A lot of assessors have little experience working in mental health, dealing with controlling behaviours, looking at relationships dynamic other than through ND perspective, and the usual outcome of a diagnosis is 'be kinder' to ND partner as main accomodation. I believe it's not that simple - at certain point it does not matter what causes behaviour - trauma, personality disorder, ND - if relationship is abusive, you prioritize safety. But there seems to be a huge stigma around discussing this aspect of ND relationships.

I have experience of abuse, where the behaviour was always explained by obvious personality traits. Now it could be as easily explained as ND. If it ever happened, my worry is that I'd be asked to 'be kind' regardless of my experiences.

This was an issue raised in the AR report. He was diagnosed with autism and the emphasis switched to being all about him and being sympathetic and down playing the potential harm to others. Exacerbated by the parents.

Yes and ultimately three innocent children lost their lives. And the head teacher who tried to talk about the risk to others was told she was 'racist' and 'stereotyping'.

Ultimately I don't think it's kind to someone with autism to imply that normal rules of life won't apply to them. And this should include abusive behaviour. Obviously more support should be available to help these men avoid being abusive but abusive behaviour has the same impact on the victim regardless of why it's happening.

There is currently a thread where a trans-identified man seems to be using autism and other diagnoses as an excuse for CSA. Amelia Connolly of the Scottish Greens remanded on CSA charges | Mumsnet

It's also the case these days that some of the people being expected to 'be kind' and accommodate may be autistic themselves.

I know a little girl locally who is now diagnosed as autistic (her parents got the diagnosis). She masked in school but struggled hugely with the behaviour she was expected to 'be kind' about in school from boys with autism. That wasn't really very 'kind' to her.

Of course the main problem here is that schools don't have enough money and there aren't enough special needs schools (in an ideal world you'd have several different specialist schools). So children are kept in classes where they absolutely shouldn't be both for their wellbeing and that of their peers. And ultimately, it seems to me, there is a failing in the system where the focus is always individual and not on the wider risks and impacts. For an exclusion to happen there has to be actual harm so even when it's absolutely plain as day eventually harm will happen - as in the case of AR - nothing changes until someone actually is harmed.

I don't think it's particularly kind to these boys to be getting the impression that the world will always accommodate their extreme behaviours, because there comes a point where it won't. They need a lot more specialist input (not just min wage TAs) earlier on.

As a woman with autism myself and also as a retired nurse for people with learning disabilities I have a reasonable amount of experience in this area.

To start with it presents very differently within males and females.

Females tend to mask more. I believe this is because as girls we are conditioned from birth to be nice, be kind, fit in in a way which is far beyond expectations on boys but maybe it is in part hormonal with testosterone making boys inherently more aggressive.

Then there is also the fact that you can be an arsehole with autism or a nice person with autism.

The lack of empathy is a stereotype which does not apply to every autistic person at all.

Difficulty in coping with social relationships and understanding the motivations and behaviour of others is not the same as lack of empathy.

Many autistic people make exhaustive efforts to be the person they think others want them to be in order to make other people comfortable.

Those who don’t (mainly males) are the ones whose behaviour leads to the negative stereotype of autistic people as cold and selfish.

However, even within that group those who would then progress such behaviour as far as coercion and violence it is not specifically part of autism.

Autistic people do have characters and personality separate to their autism.

Learning disabilities (and to be clear I am talking about people who here about people who could not live independently, are non verbal etc) are a different kettle of fish and what we as learning disability nurses termed “challenging behaviour” ie aggression is quite common with people who have autism and a severe learning disability.
But these individuals have the double difficulty of struggling with the world due to autism and limited ability to express that or to develop coping strategies due to their cognitive disability so it is very understandable that aggression is often the outcome.

I do think that self diagnosis of both autism and ADHD is a problem.

It is bizarre and frustrating that some people see Autism (and ADHD) as desirable labels to make themself interesting, or to get special treatment or (sometimes literally) a get out of jail free card.

Apart from anything else it gives the rest of us autistic people, who are just living our lives and not expecting the world to revolve around them, a bad name.

I actually feel awkward if I need to tell someone I have autism due to all the bandwagon jumpers.

Even if you have a professional diagnosis it is not the free pass for life which some seem to believe but rather a signpost to help you understand why you struggle and how to make life work for you but never of course, at the detriment of others.

It was interestibg watching Love On The Spectrum how much more confident the men were xompared to the women. I think a lot of the entitled behaviour is because men get diagbosed earlier because they arent forced to comply socially like girls are. Boys will be boys, he hurt you because he likes you and all of those excuses and tropes play a part in the low bar we set for boys to comply socially. Women not being diagnosed until later ages means they have usually met a certain level of socialisation and have hidden things that make them obviously autistic because they have been conditioned to be less (less enthusiastic, calmer, quieter etc).

Sorry for typos. Havibg to access on mobile and struggle to type!

'It's also the case these days that some of the people being expected to 'be kind' and accommodate may be autistic themselves.'

That's what I see too at work. The main problem is that loud, problem, externalised behaviours tend to overshadow internal presentations.
Problem behaviours tend to be prioritized for support.

Instead of setting boundaries (focus on changing behaviour as well as others being understanding), as it would be the case with other behavioural issues, the uniform advice for ND accomodation is to be kinder to meet the person's needs. It is expecting the problems will stop once all needs are met, regardless if there is any evidence to support this claim.

The lack of empathy is a stereotype which does not apply to every autistic person at all.

I have 3 very empathetic people with autism in my household, not just cognitive empathy plenty of affective empathy there too. On the other hand my father does not have a dribble of empathy. He struggles with cognitive empathy because if it isn’t how he thinks and feels then he dismisses any feeling anyone else has out of hand.

It is very hard to hear when this empathy difference with ASD is discussed where people assume empathy in autism is a universal given when you have been brought up with the cold, controlling and completely lacking in any empathy version. While I absolutely get that tonnes of autistic people are very empathetic there are plenty who are not. Mirror neurons are often a difference in autism.

It is the spectrum of the condition where traits are spiky on both ends of spectrum but you are not allowed to discuss the traits that harm others because it is seen as offensive.

Yes, this whole 'unmet need' thing as a driver is problematic in schools where the need for basic education and sufficient books is also 'unmet' due to lack of funding and difficulty retaining staff (who at the TA end can earn as much with far less personal risk in a supermarket).

The fact is that schools are not funded or staffed to meet many children's needs - if indeed they can ever be met -, and yet the children are kept at the same school despite the risk to themselves and others. This is not good for any of the children involved. Boundaries are good for children, all children. If children really can't cope with boundaries they shouldn't be in a normal school because boundaries and rules are the only way these places can work. Loosening and bending safety boundaries because of a diagnosis seems to me to be the opposite of 'kind' in the long term. And the absolute hard-line boundary should be that you do not harm others.

Where children are violent, they are affecting the need of other children to feel and be safe (let alone get an education and some of these children will have ASD too), and yet, so much seems to be excused. My daughter's been evacuated from her classroom at least 4 times in the past few weeks. At what point is the child causing the evacuations given education that meets his needs and at what point does my child get an education where she doesn't need to be evacuated. The teachers and TAs are doing their best in a very difficult situation.

There's some concerning commentary on this thread Teacher speaks about lack of classroom support and abuse in schools | Mumsnet (not specifically about autism but about how many violent behaviours are excused in schools and put down to 'unmet needs' with seemingly no consideration of the needs of other children and teachers to be safe). It's unclear here whether the teacher has no support due to lack of funding or because no-one's willing to do a job where they will be kicked, hit, chairs thrown at them for minimum wage.

What if the 'unmet need' a boy feels he has is girls to hit or harm? Surely that's a perceived need that really does have to stay unmet? I also think it's not very kind to children to give them the expectation that every 'need' will be met. Because that's not life, unfortunately.

@DuskOPorter i agree, this “He struggles with cognitive empathy because if it isn’t how he thinks and feels then he dismisses any feeling anyone else has out of hand.” is hard to live with.

It requires significant self confidence to repeatedly remind someone that their opinion is not ‘the only correct one’, despite their intelligence.

I have had to repeatedly remind DH not make and act on major family impacting decisions without running them past me. And that when I ask for more information or discuss the matter with him, it isn’t a criticism but a reasonable and permissible attempt to understand our life.
I suggested he work out a family budget (massive change in circumstances ). He did. He didn’t however think to share it with me. He’s quite surprised I’d like to know what it is!

When I was an undergrad 30 years ago, there was a notorious professor who hassled female students. He was investigated and said “I’m autistic” and so got no punishment. The female students just learned to avoid him.

more generally, most autistic people can learn social behaviours, it just takes more time and explicit examples. (I’m excluding profound autism here). So autism should not be used to excuse abusive behaviour.

My son was diagnosed as mildly autistic in the later years of primary school. His Reception teacher spotted it pretty much from day one, as did many of our friends, but diagnosis by paediatrician came a few years later.

I cried when they confirmed it. Because he will never, ever "grow out of it" - it is him. And while he is hilarious, imaginative, clever and can be kind and affectionate, he struggles with communication, boundaries, social behaviour and is endlessly in trouble.

Our parental strategy is to teach him that once reasonable adjustments for him are made, it's up to him to learn the rules and get on with it. Violence is unacceptable and leads to punishment. A lot of his poor behaviour goes in phases so sometimes we are teaching no whilst just riding it out and hoping it ends.

To go back to the OP, I read any media accounts of autistic people and try to learn from them. I have seen 2 accounts where autistic people hurt innocent children (AR and the Tate Gallery incident) but more where autistic people were the victim.

I worry that, as my son is already bigger than me, we have the potential for DV but we just keep reinforcing that Violence is wrong.

The issue is that, as with all people, it’s very hard to distinguish between what is autism and what is the additional result of nurture/ lack of nurture/ culture around the individual when growing up. This could include online culture too.

Many autistic children really struggle to differentiate between what is real and what is fantasy. Many also rely heavily on echolalia and delayed echolalia when learning key things.

There is also an overlap with schizophrenia; 10% adults who are were diagnosed with autism as children go onto develop schizophrenia.

An autistic child exposed to poor examples of domestic interactions/ actual DV, overly violent and misogynistic online / screen content etc could really struggle / be abusive when they’re an adult. At the same time it does not absolve them of responsibility. Obviously all of this is extremely individual. And these things can certainly affect anyone. Personality types overlap every diagnosis.

There’s actually a large number of differential diagnosis to autism. It’s very important to get the correct diagnosis as some can do extremely well with a lot of therapy (eg BDP, PTSD, trauma.) but this is also very challenging as there are no biomarkers for any of them - just a subjective list.

'The issue is that, as with all people, it’s very hard to distinguish between what is autism and what is the additional result of nurture/ lack of nurture/ culture around the individual when growing up. This could include online culture too.'

I disagree. There is so much overlap between symptoms - BPD and ND and trauma, if you look for them. All can be correct - as in there are behaviours ticking certain criteria. There is a tendency though , once autism or ADHD are diagnosed, to explain ALL behaviour through ND, dismissing other explanations.

"3) I also don't want to cause testerical shouting, and trust the intelligence and nuance of the women here"

Lol. Good luck with that!