Male "autism" and abusive behaviour

[SpiderPlantBoogie]

Hello. I'm posting this here as 1) it's my most usual stomping ground (under different names) when I go on MN, 2) I think it does relate to some of what we talk about on this board, and 3) I also don't want to cause testerical shouting, and trust the intelligence and nuance of the women here.

I've long been concerned about the massive expansion of "autism" (including self-ID autism) and am glad we're talking about it more. (Along with lots of other psychiatric categories, but that's another story). I'd also like to think/talk/read a bit more about the overlap of abusive behaviour (including coercive control) - often but not exclusively from men - with "autism". The leaps from "I like things a very particular way" to "...and so you have to tow the line or I will make sure you suffer", and from "I struggle with people" to "...and so don't expect me to think about anyone other than myself", seem much narrower than I would like. I'm pretty close IRL to a number of people this seems to apply to, and it can clearly devastate other people's (often primarily women's) lives.

Obviously (I would hope we all agree) we don't want to contribute to more discrimination against people with disabilities. But with these particular disabilities (which often stretch traditional definitions), that "always the victim" rhetoric is potentially so dangerous.

I'm sure this must have come up before. Can anyone suggest things I might read on the topic?

PS I am, of course, absolutely not talking about all people with autism diagnoses here. Also this probably doesn't apply much to people with clear intellectual disabilities; probably more to the new-style diagnoses than the more obvious difficulties which would have been diagnosed even decades ago.

I will die on the hill that a huge number of undiagnosed autistic men turn into abusive narcissists as a way of getting their needs met. This usually applies to conventionally attractive men from "normal" families who simply refuse to believe that there is something wrong with them. They learned how to mask aggressively early in life so nobody associates them with typically autistic behaviours like painting model trains, memorising 1000 Pokemon names etc. But inside, they are still neurodivergent so they self-medicate with alcohol, stim by being on their phone all the time, use their career as an excuse for disordered or repetitive eating habits, and they utilise aggression, weaponised incompetence or coercive control to ensure all their needs are met by their partners.

If they feel sensory overwhelm or executive function freeze, they will go non-verbal which also acts like emotional abuse for their partners to figure out how to fix it. Their partners and children can often sense which situations trigger them most so they will end up bending over backwards to accommodate the man's needs to avoid being punished by his bad mood or silent treatment.

This is compounded by the fact that very successful ASD or ADHD men tend to attract narcissists because they love the proximity to money or fame. They're easily manipulated into becoming close friends with grandiose or malignant narcissists and all the toxic male behaviours end up becoming normalised over the years.

The only difference would be that ASD men don't tend to exhibit abusive behaviours if all their needs are being met and they are genuinely happy. However this state is very difficult to achieve in a busy adult life so they will constantly be triggered by mess, stress, children, chaos etc. True narcissists will continuing abusing their family regardless of circumstance because they enjoy it.

This is a really important discussion.

I’ve worked in the criminal justice system for many years now, and to be blunt there is a massive overlap between these types of behaviours and men diagnosed with autism and ADHD. So much so, that I would say more are than not. And it is used as mitigation - ‘I struggle with appropriate behaviours and relationships because I’m autistic’.

Interestingly such behaviours from autistic women are very low which confirms my suspicions that this is just male behaviour rather than autistic behaviour, but the diagnosis is being used as a handy mitigator.

Ultimately we can’t reach a place where highly abusive men are citing autism as some kind of justification or excuse for what they’ve done, but we are heading in that direction. It’s convenient there is no equivalent diagnosis for women who want to explain away their crimes.

But nobody is entitled to have their needs met at the expense of others. This rush to frantically understand and appease male behaviour would never happen in reverse. I feel very strongly that this is just the age old abusive male behaviour dressed up as pathology as if to say they can’t help it.

They can help it. They don’t act like this at work, or toward their friends. It’s always the poor girlfriend or wife that takes the brunt. As usual.

I would say that a version of this is pretty much the experience I grew up with including the mother with a decent dose of narcissistic traits alongside him who was very focussed on image, on manipulation and had quite the propensity to using nastiness to control her children.

They are people so they had good qualities too but any form of minor stress on them or behaviour that they perceived to negatively impact on their image they both used nastiness to regulate themselves.

The dynamics in the family were truly awful.

Yes I never said that absolves them of consequences. They should absolutely be held responsible for behaviour that impacts others and very often, these families fall apart anyway. However it's strange how nobody ever mentions the connection between ND and abusive or lazy male behaviour when it's so blatantly obvious. The autism police on MN always get their knickers in a twist whenever someone hints that people with ASD do not belong in a perpetual state of victimhood but can very well be assholes and abusers as well.

It's less "I like things to be a certain way" and more "If things aren't a certain way, it causes me intense discomfort and suffering".

What is ‘ND’ though? I’m sorry to say I’m not entirely ‘there’ yet in being convinced there are ‘different brain types’ which divide neatly into ND and NT.

And finally my response to intense discomfort and suffering is to behave in abusive and controlling ways that do not consider the wellbeing of the people around me.

That’s a huge grey area though. There will be degrees of suffering. And their suffering doesn’t entitle them to abuse others.

Even worse is when this dynamic occurs in very religious families. Instead of being taught how to regulate or verbalise feelings, which is already difficult for ND kids, they are fobbed off with some standard line about God's will, go pray for something or some other bible quote that has zero connection to their actual emotional problems.

A dysregulated but successful ND father, a weak pandering mother and a whole bunch of undiagnosed ND kids growing up in a strict, often religious family is a recipe for disaster. Yet they always appear perfect from the outside so nobody believes them!

The vast majority of these men are not raised religiously, and do not work. I would say 8 out of 10 are on benefits.

Thank you all for the responses - very interesting to read.

For me, this is very related to the idea that autism is a pretty poor category (as is ADHD), and no one really knows what it means any more (if we ever did, which I personally doubt). And adding in other poorly-defined categories like personality disorders and schizophrenia into the mix doesn't really get to the bottom of it.

There are some people - often (mainly) men - who behave in very controlling ways which decimate other people's (often women's) lives around them. We increasingly link these behaviours to diagnoses, some of which allow us to say "not his fault", and continue to act in ways which perpetuate the behaviour.

For some categories, like narcissistic personality or psychopathy, we often/usually do attribute fault/blame, and it's acceptable to stop dancing to someone's tune - and to dislike them and even expect them to be punished - if those labels are applied.

Autism is a bit different. It's a category for which there absolutely are plenty of people who meet criteria who are perfectly lovely and non-abusive (I know lots of these people). But there are also lots of behaviours which are anything but lovely which do seem to relate to the criteria used for diagnosis (and I know an increasing number of men who fit this category, too).

It's such a messy area to try to discuss.

Thank you again for thinking about it in good faith.

"OCD" and "autism" also make interesting comparison - if a person "has OCD", we know that the best thing we can do to treat their obsessive need for things to be exactly as they want/need them to be is to gradually expose them to things being different and let them learn to tolerate it ("exposure and response prevention"). If the reason they want things a particular way is that they "have autism", it's viewed as something for other people to accommodate (and we really have no idea if that's the best thing for the "autistic" person).

But actually, there's often nothing of substance to delineate these conditions, with our expanding use of the word autism. The co-occurrence of the behaviours is massive.

It’s a really hard conversation to have here, or anywhere else. I keep reading and re reading my posts, trying to see which bit is going to get me jumped on and slapped down. However…

@SpiderPlantBoogie I think there’s a significant marker between the unintentional damage from some ND behaviours and the damaging behaviours we judge more harshly.
I get cross that it feels as if all the accommodating and learning is on me, and all the allowances are given to him. However, with my increased knowledge and understanding I can make my life significantly better. Yes, I’m handling him. Yes he ought to do more about understanding his own condition. But he isn’t deliberately behaving in ways that make my life difficult and he doesn’t change the behaviour when I’ve found a solution that works.

The goal or purpose of his behaviour has nothing to do with me. In fact, that’s the issue! I’m irrelevant. He does his thing. I find ways to stop his thing making my life miserable. He takes no joy in winning or getting his own way.

It isn’t easy to put in words, but the feel is totally different from the feel of more malicious people.

I'm also interested in this. My ExH is almost certainly autistic, but he is also an alcoholic and an emotional abuser and the former does not necessarily lead to the letter. After a fair amount of reading on the subject, I think he is more borderline psychopath really (Though I am not a professional) - no willingness/ability to understand things from another point of view, no empathy for anyone, complete disregard for rules/laws/social norms.

When he set fire to our house (as a punishment for me trying to leave after 30 years of patiently supporting him) he was arrested for arson and tried to build a defence based on his being "autistic", it didn't work and he got 18 months, and I have a 15 year no contact injunction.

My DD23 is also probably autistic. She certainly has some mental health and anxiety issues (Though much improved in the last few years and is now working full time - so proud of her) - she has said of her dad's autism, "well yes, I am autistic too, doesn't mean I act like an arsehole as a given"

I feel utterly abused and now traumatised by the behaviour of my teenage ND son towards me. It's usually behind closed doors, enabled by an equally abusive, I suspect ND father, ( my ex) who I see alienating teenager against me more and more with each week. So yes - I see a connect here.

my theory is that my mother may have started out with autistic traits which combined with a childhood trauma, and a strong desire to fit in and be normal (masking/denial) now manifests NPD.
I think it’s fascinating and I see the same/similar pattern in other family members. It’s also awful.
there is something vulnerable and self aware in a person gently asking for considerations for their autism but narcissists get what they want using different methods.
I also worry that we have set up a generation of over diagnosed autistic young people and children to fail by diagnosing and accommodating them to such a great extent that some of them start to believe themselves to be special and expect that the world should and will bend to them.

OP, you were asking about reading...have you read "The Age of Diagnosis", Suzanne O'Sullivan, a neurologist? Many may find it problematic...but she makes some salient points..

This is exactly what I see in my Dd's school, unfortunately. She is really fed up that some children 'get away with being bad' because they have 'special needs'. One of her best friends has ASD and she can see the difference between his behaviour (sometimes not coping very well, but never malicious - he has brilliant parents who are doing a fantastic job supporting him) and a child that is an out and out bully, deliberately, and gets away with it.

At some point expecting all the other children to just put up and shut up no matter how awful the impact on them becomes almost encouraging abusive behaviours.

This is a really interesting debate.

I have a friend who’s long term partner has been diagnosed with ADHD, and since this point he’s become on one hand a great advocate for ADHD experiences but also incapable of basic day to day tasks and parenting. The strain on her is immense and he has, I quote from her, ‘regular incidents of dysregulation’. During this time she has to take action to keep herself and her DC safe.

I am sorry, as much as I want to support her and him, this is not acceptable.

Im finding it very difficult to be supportive and know this is a ‘me’ issue.

So he was capable of basic tasks and parenting before diagnosis and he's not now? And the only thing that's changed is the diagnosis? Hmmm......

@womendeserveequalhumanrights - I worry about the message with are giving young girls and boys, but mostly girls, about what is acceptable to ‘put up with’.

We need to be teaching that it’s ok to have boundaries!

Hmmmmm indeed

Though to be fair he was pretty rubbish previously!

A slightly silly example from my own life. Man close to me (of controlling ilk) gets his shopping done by woman close to me. Man has certain strongly preferred brands. Woman (downtrodden in extreme) tries very hard to get these brands because her life is made very hard if she doesn't. Then man gets diagnosed with autism, and woman now BENDS OVER BACKWARDS to get the brands because "it's the autism". The specificity of the demands increases. Man is delighted, and increasingly self-righteous.

The man has told me in the past that he likes these brands mainly because they cost less. In other rhetoric... he's tight 🤷‍♀️

I can kind of see how people change their expectations of their own behaviour, too. I've always been noticeably disorganised and messy, with poor time keeping (alongside "high function" in other respects). A few years ago, as ADHD became more well-publicised, people started suggesting that I "have ADHD". I'm not pursuing this for various reasons (although looking at the assessment criteria, I would pass with flying colours), but when it was suggested to me, I noticed the immediate lure of the thought "Oh well, perhaps I'll just give in to the lateness...". I caught myself at the thought, and so still do try very hard to not be late (because I think lateness can be rude and inconsiderate), but seeing the attraction of this has really stuck with me....

I think someone can be abusive and have ND traits or be ND and have challenging behaviors that can be considered abusive and require behavior modification. If these behaviors are happening does it matter if it’s autistic rigidity or abuse? The outcome is the same for those impacted by the behavior?
I say this as someone diagnosed and medicated for ADHD. With a diagnosed Autistic DS and likely Autistic DH.
People who have agency and are mentally competent can choose how they behave. They can have an urge to do something that would cause harm and not carry out that action. For example my DH has part of his routine that he has a bath. But he can cope without one for a night or too. At the more extreme end DS needs time alone to decompress. But if he is really needed he will come and help. He hates to be touched but if I ask him he will hug me. Or accept a hug given advanced warning after a long time apart.
Love at its core in the family is sacrificial - we give up some of our immediate wants to tend to those of the family member. Sleep for babies, time for children, etc etc
Part of being human and living in a society is accepting that our behavior has an impact on others. And to modify our behaviors sometimes so we can live together in harmony. I think that can be harder for ND people and those with ridgid routines and behaviors. But it can be done.
Personally I think abuse is abuse and it doesn’t matter if the perpetrator is ND or NT. It’s still abuse. Intent also matters but that is more difficult to discern.