Male "autism" and abusive behaviour

[SpiderPlantBoogie]

Hello. I'm posting this here as 1) it's my most usual stomping ground (under different names) when I go on MN, 2) I think it does relate to some of what we talk about on this board, and 3) I also don't want to cause testerical shouting, and trust the intelligence and nuance of the women here.

I've long been concerned about the massive expansion of "autism" (including self-ID autism) and am glad we're talking about it more. (Along with lots of other psychiatric categories, but that's another story). I'd also like to think/talk/read a bit more about the overlap of abusive behaviour (including coercive control) - often but not exclusively from men - with "autism". The leaps from "I like things a very particular way" to "...and so you have to tow the line or I will make sure you suffer", and from "I struggle with people" to "...and so don't expect me to think about anyone other than myself", seem much narrower than I would like. I'm pretty close IRL to a number of people this seems to apply to, and it can clearly devastate other people's (often primarily women's) lives.

Obviously (I would hope we all agree) we don't want to contribute to more discrimination against people with disabilities. But with these particular disabilities (which often stretch traditional definitions), that "always the victim" rhetoric is potentially so dangerous.

I'm sure this must have come up before. Can anyone suggest things I might read on the topic?

PS I am, of course, absolutely not talking about all people with autism diagnoses here. Also this probably doesn't apply much to people with clear intellectual disabilities; probably more to the new-style diagnoses than the more obvious difficulties which would have been diagnosed even decades ago.

Nope, it’s a totally reasonable perspective. What happens if she dies? Does he just continue to not parent? Or hand it over to someone else?

Thanks for your post, OP. I'll be following it.

I have often wondered about the overlap between people with autism and people with NPD. I've know both in my life, and have noted the parallels between the self-ishness of the people with NPD and the self-ishness of people with autism.

Thank you @Oneearringlost - looking this up

With PDA ( something I believe often associated with intelligent Autistic males), the need for autonomy and control is pervasive. In my experience, I see this includes control of other people through manipulation. I'm seeing this in my teenager and it is very upsetting and also it's a worry.

I've got the Alexa-alarm going on behind me, so need to scoot off. But wanted to say how your first para here has got me properly intrigued.

My mother also may have had autistic traits - my brother is on the spectrum - had a very traumatic childhood, and ended up a vicious narcissist (guess who was the Scapegoat?).

I'm reading this thread because of the overlap I see between NPD behaviour and the behaviour of people with autism, ASD and ADHD.

So, thanks for giving me food for thought.

I suspect that there’s a certain amount of trying to live up to expectations, doing a god awful job and making yourself miserable/ill trying.

But when the diagnosis penny drops, you have to find a better way to be with the new insight that you have, rather than just assuming everyone around will pick up after you.

That’s what I regularly nudge DH towards- Lean into your strengths. Try not to trample all over me in your hyper focus. Apologise when someone points out you’re being rude.

As he’s become less stressed, he’s been so much easier to live with.

Selfish men will find all sorts of things to use against other people, whether they are autistic or not.

My main concern is teaching people how to hold their own boundaries in the face of other people’s needs.

Many people have needs. It isn’t my responsibility to facilitate them, or meet them. I get to choose.

I decided long ago that I didn’t care why my person with (undiagnosed) autism was doing what they were doing. I only cared about the effect on me. I can’t control what and why they do things.

im autistic with adhd. And all my kids have various combinations including PDA. And I don’t act like this person.

X post with you @NewNameOldGame

@TranscendThis Control of other people does not seem to me to be an ASD behaviour. Control of an environment, yes. I think if someone is manipulating people to control them then it isn’t because of ASD. @SpiderPlantBoogie in your shopping example, he really needs to be getting his own stuff if he’s going to be fussy. That’s the pushback we all need to get better with, imo.

My grandfather was by all accounts an unpleasant man who made life hard for my mum and grandma. ND? Maybe. ND traits without a doubt. But the healthy dose of misogyny was the real problem.

I'm sure I’ve read about children babies with significant ASD being traumatised by infancy, as they don’t take comfort from touch and may not understand a lot of their experiences. I know DS had a few traumatic experiences at my hands, before I learned how to do better. So many ND people may also have trauma just from being ND in an NT world, or from having parents completely unable to meet their needs- possibly ND themselves.

The thing is, certain behaviours and patterns just are absolutely obvious. Not exhaustive, and not universal, but there’s a great big Venn diagram with whopping big overlapped areas.

Trains. Obsessive play when very young.
I didn’t know what I was noticing, but I was noticing things very early with DS. Certain behaviours were just baked in. I wish so much I’d had my current knowledge back then.

Not neat, not binary, but there is a ‘thing’ we’re observing or describing. What we do about of course is something else.

im autistic with adhd. And all my kids have various combinations including PDA. And I don’t act like this person.

And this cannot be stressed enough, the amount of autistic people including autistic men who would never ever dream of behaving in these ways is significant. I work in STEM lots of autistic men and most of them are absolutely the other end of the spectrum from what is being described but I do know of others who fit this bill so closely and just for clarity DD is autistic and does have female autistic peers who have similar behaviour patterns.

Same. I got diagnosed after my kids coz in the 80s girls didn’t have autism or adhd. Apparently.

Just because someone is neurodiverse, doesn’t mean they can’t also be an arsehole. A lot of people forget that.

Absolutely, but what is being discussed here is that people are being told to accommodate what essentially amounts to abuse under the guise of accommodations for ASD.

This is something that needs to be firmly pushed back on.

I think we’re trying to identify how to distinguish between needs that can and should be accommodated and behaviour that’s similar but different and not to be accommodated.
I think the ND person may find it hard to tell the difference.
I think particularly in puberty, the impulses and disregulation must be very hard to manage especially when you consider the difficulties with interpreting physical sensations and emotions that can be part of autism/ND.

Maybe we could learn what pattern of ASD traits is most susceptible to particular behaviours, and help those DC to identify and regulate those impulses.

It feels as though at the moment we treat ND traits as they present, without much awareness of which are most likely to cause issues longer term.
But I’m not up to date, so maybe that’s not the case.

Well yes, because for a long time there has been a narrative that claimed that any arseholery is actually the neurodiversity. Always. Which can be a complete mindfuck.

If I’m entirely honest, of someone’s need are making you unhappy, uncomfortable, abused, controlled etc. there is no “should” accommodate. Even if they can’t help it. I’m talking about partners here (not children , but even with children , there can be a point/age where enough is enough). Because no one owes somebody else a relationship. Either they can’t help it and expecting them to change is unfair and unrealistic( there are exceptions, but it takes a lot of hard work, self awareness and intrinsic motivation) , or they can, so they choose to behave that way . Either way , most of the time, you’ll still be with someone that makes you feel unhappy, uncomfortable, abused, controlled etc.

That ^^

You may understand why someone behaves that way. You may understand the reasons, the difficulties, the distress, the challenges.

This does not remove the impact that it may have on you, or place a requirement for unconditional tolerance. Even sadly if it's your child.

The examples given of the Tate gallery and Axel Rudakubana are cases of people diagnosed with ASD though so no not just arseholery being reinterpreted as ASD.

They can both be true though. And sometimes they are. Because people are people.

If someone with Tourettes tells me to fuck off and punches me in the face , in the middle of an argument is it a tick or an assault? Does their diagnosis exclude them from also being a violent person?

Can you confidently state those crimes happened because the perpetrators had ASD and nothing else?

' I think we’re trying to identify how to distinguish between needs that can and should be accommodated and behaviour that’s similar but different and not to be accommodated.'

Maybe we cannot, as it's artificial distinction. Part of the problem is in how we look at it. It's unrealistic to meet all needs all the time, and, as there are ALWAYS clashes with the needs of others. Need to affirm should never be more important than need to recognise others' have needs too.

We cannot sort these tensions by affirming only. Instead, we should be discussing -is this person's need for self expression and voicing feelings more important that that person's need for safety? Who decides?

People are being asked /expected to excuse violent and abusive behaviour as an accommodation for ASD.

Read through some of the Axel Rudakubana case for multiple examples of it but it happens at much more regularity with violence and abusive behaviour of pupils in schools.

My son was in a specialist provision, a child was turning the classroom upside down, all of the children had ASD, clearly now instead of one child’s need not being met no child with ASD’s needs were being met. This behaviour cannot be accommodated in a school environment where all of the other children are impacted daily.

Those are the day to day experiences of these issues.

This is a great discussion to follow and thank you for contributing everyone.

'People are being asked /expected to excuse violent and abusive behaviour as an accommodation for ASD.'

There is also an assumption (which I see at work all the time) that all problem behaviours will go away after the person's needs are met. It blatantly ignores the effects of learning, nurture, societal context, wider environment. And - of course - ignores the needs of others.

Sorry this is a bit delayed response.

Honestly in that situation what I believe would happen is the oldest DD in her late teens would become the default carer for younger siblings. I see it already happening.