Watch in real time as Trans Reddit turns on one of it's own for suggesting that maybe they are biological men and arguing they are not makes them look unstable.

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1t0t604/trans_girl_says_were_all_biological_males/

A man can't go through 'female puberty '. It's not possible.

He can use the toilet - the men's.

'Apart from our bodies' -yes, there are male bodies and female bodies. Males - however much they have cosmetic surgeries still have male bodies. So they should stay out of female spaces.

This trans person has been surgically altered to have a female body, was given estrogen with undetectable levels of testosterone as a teen meaning they didn't develop muscles. They are 5'4 and a size six. Zero threat. And gender isn't real. Why don't you want them in the toilets with you ?

Because it is the bodies that use the toilets. And the bodies of small skinny men are as unacceptable in women's spaces as the bodies of big tall men.

Because sex is real, and fantasy fairy-dust gender is not.

As I explained upthread, I have experience of a man smaller than that assaulting a woman I knew. He was very high-risk.

Did he have male muscles ?

He doesn't have a female body.

Do you think any small man who wants to should be allowed in female spaces?

No tell me what makes you a woman? I am a woman because I was born female and didn't die before adulthood. Me, the Oxford English dictionary and most of humanity since pre history have this understanding of the word but you have a different understanding so what do you believe a woman to be? If you know that you are a woman what is it to be a woman if it is not to be female?

Should he be allowed to participate in children's activities because he's smaller than some of them?

No shoehorning. Just an analysis of your situation when the subjective reality is stripped away and the material reality is observed instead.

That testosterone had been working in your body since birth and there will be testosterone differences in your body that estrogen will not have impacted or negated from before you took that estrogen.

I am not 'imposing' a motivation on you. I am explaining what your own words have stated. You have allowed others to group you into the 'woman' category. That is a passive act, unless you have a different word that means the same that you would prefer to use. Allowing others to do that with zero correct from you is indeed a 'passive act'.

And despite your protests, the fact you did not disclose to female people that you were male when sex might have mattered to those female people, is again you not respecting female people. You have shown time and time again that you don't understand the concepts of consent, your very presence in a female single sex provision without consent from all the people who use that provision or might be coming in while you are there makes you lack of understanding or interest in seeking consent very clear.

Your denial of this doesn't mean that my summary is not accurate and abiding.

'In reference to medical situations, you create this bizarre motivation scenario involving doctors humouring the poor fragile trans woman. I have previously shared details involving pre-surgical medication required for males due to very real physical issues present in >50 yr old men and not for females.'

This doesn't stand up to logic.

No medical doctor would be acting as if you were a person who was female if they were not under guidance to act as if you were a female person in all their communication with you. If they didn't acknowledge that you were a male person with decades of estrogen supplementation and no testosterone production from Testes for decades then they would be seriously operating under mis information.

Sure... the male pre-surgical medication required for surgery will be different than for you, specifically, because of your choices to make extreme body modifications and take hormones at quantities not meant for male people, but that never made you female.

You really are grasping at things trying to change the reality that you are not a male person who has made decisions from the belief that he was female when he was always and will be always a male person.

There is a subculture around avoidance of the real world full stop. There is a certain section of the community - many of whom are autistic and can be understood from this to an extent - where this is very much the ethos.

"If I wish hard enough, perhaps I can cast fireballs from my fingertips." Being able to change sex is a feature of D&D elves and some sci-fi stories.

Knowing the difference between fantasy and reality is important. When you are autistic and puberty is traumatising you, it's tempting to give into that wishful thinking.

And yet, that person is not female.

Yes, gender is not real. So why again should male person be in any female single sex space?

Harm is also not just about physical risk to safety. There are many types of harms that female people need female single sex provisions to be safeguarded against:

Harms include:
-Rape and sexual assault.
-Violence.
-Sexual abuse that is not rape or sexual assault.
-Sexual abuse that also includes solo sexual acts or using the experience in future sexual acts.
-Any other abuse that may include verbal abuse, intimidation in any way etc, this includes inappropriate questions and comments.
-A male person's presence where female people need privacy and dignity.
-A male person's presence where female people need to feel safe from any male person's presence (over the age of about 8 years old).
-Female people self-excluding knowing that there may be a male person accessing that provision.
-Female people not having the freedom to discuss the issues that cause them distress, concern, or that they need to talk about because a male person is present.
-Female children (and female adults) learning to have no or too low personal boundaries because they have been taught that male people are female people and that they should ignore and overcome feelings of discomfort.

Narrowing the discussion to sex and violence offences does not remove these other harms from consideration for female single sex spaces and vice versa.
They are all important.

And by the way, would you like to post evidence that a teenaged boy has never developed any testosterone advantage and that estrogen has completely reversed any male genetic and testosterone advantage? And that decades of estrogen with no testosterone has completely negated any physical advantage?

I look forward to you providing that as that would be a study that we have missed in our searches.

I am happy to link you up with the studies that show that from 6 or 7 male children have physical advantages that have now been shown to be from early exposure to testosterone or from genetics and that from about the average age of 12 boys consistently show testosterone advantage.

Please link up the evidence where that surge from early puberty has completely been negated with muscle mass, change in twitch muscle advantage etc. I look forward to it.

I believe that male muscle development such as % of twitch muscles etc is something that is not hormone driven.

Do you have proof that it is changed by estrogen supplementation in a mid pubertal male body?

Putting a red Lego brick in a box of blue Lego bricks doesn't make it a blue Lego brick. Putting a man in woman's spaces doesn't make him a woman. What does in your opinion make you a woman?

Evolved, not designed. The proximity of the urethra to the vagina, and consequent tendency to honeymoon cystitis, is proof that women were not designed. If you were designing a lifeform, you'd keep the excretory and egestory outlets away from the reproductive one.

Just a reminder, a male person doesn't need to have a penis for their sex to be correctly identified as male. There are quite a few male celebrities who have been on puberty blockers and / or early cross sex hormones who are quite easy to observe and identify as being male.

Their presence in a female single sex provision can cause harm to any female person who needs that provision to be female only.

Do you believe that physical harm is the only premise for safeguarding decisions to fully exclude all male people above the age of 8 years old? Because if you did believe that, you would be wrong.

I'll just respond to what you said about men not being in women's bathrooms because of dignity. If we are all just our bodies and the same in every other way then why is such the situation undignified ?

And as the Dr that delivered my eldest sibling said "The good Lord should have fitted a zip fastening".

How about you respond to the entire post?

Please link up the evidence where that surge from early puberty has completely been negated with muscle mass, change in twitch muscle advantage etc. I look forward to it.

Because male bodies and female bodies are different, and because of those bodily differences male people and female people are treated differently by society, with different expectations (boys will be boys, women will be gentler with their children). When someone alters a male body it's maleness doesn't go away. The lad my helped husband medivac back from Afghanistan minis much of his lower half didn't magically become a woman. He was an injured man.

Because it isn't relevant here because the body or muscle mass of a 10 year old boy is the body of a 10 year old boy.

I didn't respond to your points about "in appropriate comments" and other things, because they amount to my same point about dignity.

If gender isn't real then why do you think someone would cause these issues ? Is that their male body doing that ?

DIFFERENCE IN HANDGRIP STRENGTH NOTED EVEN BEFORE PUBERTY

Interesting research and important when discussing inclusion of male athletes who have not experienced male puberty / androgenisation in female sports.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.70155

When and Why Do Sex Differences in Handgrip Strength Emerge? Age-Varying Effects of Testosterone From Childhood to Older Adulthood
Jun Seob Song, Heontae Kim, Myungjin Jung
First published: 06 October 2025

ABSTRACT
Objectives : On average, males are stronger than females, with hormonal changes during puberty often cited as a contributing factor to this advantage. However, not all evidence consistently supports this explanation. The purpose of this study was to determine (1) when sex differences in handgrip strength and testosterone emerge, and (2) whether testosterone mediates the sex difference in handgrip strength and if this effect varies across age.

Methods : Time-varying effect modeling (TVEM) was used to examine age-specific trajectories of handgrip strength and testosterone, and to assess whether these trajectories differed by sex. A moderated mediation analysis was conducted to test whether the sex difference in handgrip strength was mediated by testosterone level, and whether this effect varied across age. Data were drawn from the 2011–2012 and 2013–2014 cycles (N = 11,035) of the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey.

Results : TVEM indicated that the sex difference in handgrip strength emerged at age 8, whereas the sex difference in testosterone level became evident at age 10. A moderated mediation analysis revealed that testosterone mediated the association between sex and handgrip strength, and this effect decreased with age (IMM = −0.18, 95% CI: −0.20, −0.16).

Conclusion : Sex difference in handgrip strength appears to be driven, in part, by the testosterone levels. However, this difference can be observed even before the onset of puberty, which suggests that testosterone alone does not fully explain the sex difference in muscle strength. This finding may have important implications for decisions regarding inclusivity and fairness in sports that emphasize strength.

My dad, my father in law, my brothers, my brother in law, my male dear friends, my boss, my kind helpful male neighbour, all lovely people who I like and trust and in some cases love are not people I want to get naked with because my body is different to their bodies. It does things their bodies have never done and will never do even if the have their penis removed and a hole made where it used to be.

Your claim was :

"This trans person has been surgically altered to have a female body, was given estrogen with undetectable levels of testosterone as a teen meaning they didn't develop muscles. They are 5'4 and a size six. Zero threat. And gender isn't real. Why don't you want them in the toilets with you ?"

This is you claiming that apparently a male person taking estrogen after puberty has started "they didn't develop muscles".

I have asked you to link up evidence that they 'they didn't develop muscles' or any other male physical advantage.

YOU have made the claim. Please provide the support for your claim. Or are you just repeating a male person's assertion with no checking by yourself?

I don't tend to do research for conversations on mumsnet no

Bullocks are bigger and more muscular than heifers or cows, despite early castration. Capons are bigger than hens. If manyposts is small it's because he is small, not because he was castrated. Human eunuchs were often notably tall.

And no men ever go through female puberty, even if they have had artificial oestrogen administered. Oestrogen will increase the fat content of the body, that's all.