Singer Ethel Cain exposes genitals on Instagram

[testmatchspecial]

According to a post I saw on X the picture was only censored at least 12 hours after being posted. Now if you haven’t heard of EC, I’ll give you 3 guesses as to whether they’re a woman or a man.

I think there is false reporting of the history where people have leveraged homosexual male people and those who are non conforming to sex stereotypes were rejected as lower value male people. There political oppression and forced position in their culture has been raised as being leverage for today’s transgender people’s validation.

I would like anyone using that misinformation to provide exact cultural evidence that the choice was completely uncoerced. I have asked repeatedly, and no one has answered with an example of a culture that was not homophobic.

Choosing what pronoun to use to describe someone is a very personal decision. If you feel it's kind to use preferred pronouns, that's great. But that doesn't mean you're kind and respectful but someone who doesn't use preferred pronouns is unkind and disrespectful.

I don't use preferred pronouns for multiple reasons:

• I won't be a part of any child's social transition
• I don't want to be a part of an autogynophile's fetish
• I won't be coerced into saying something I don't believe. As I don't believe anyone can change sex, I won't use pronouns that suggest/pretend that I do

It took me a while to come to that position. I started off not using them for children but doing so for adults, but as I learned more about the harm that gender identity belief is doing on a societal level, I decided I wouldn't use them any more. I don't think that's unkind or disrespectful.

That is fine. That is the correct comparator to your ‘nick name’ situation.

Using any female language for those male people though is not comparative.

And these are more valid reasons to add to why is not harmless to use female language for a male person unless you are coerced in someway.

But it is not kind and respectful. And it is not harmless.

.

I’ve honestly Never heard of Ethel, nor do I care if she’s trans.
More power to her.
My trans friends are kind and generous.
I don’t know Ethel’s motivation for having the photo or photos taken, but if it was for shock and awe - she will be sorely disappointed ime.
Absolutely nothing shocks me any more.
Sorry, Ethel, whoever you are.

More of the same. Sigh.

Yep
As regular as clockwork DrB

I agree. I have been thorugh a period of not putting pressure on myself to conform to one way or another. Someones mis-gendering is another persons correctly-sexing.

I observed that I used preferred pronouns as a way of being polite to a trans person in casual conversation.

I find I don't use them when describing that person to an other person or discussing gender or sex specific spaces i.e. I will say he was in the female toilets or she was having her period.

I have noticed that I am much more likely to use the male pronouns for a transman and less likely to use female prounouns for a transwoman, I assume which probably reflects the importance for me to identify who is a male and therefore a threat to me.

I think compelled speech is one of the issues that makes the general population wary and mistrusting of the recent rise in trans-rights activism.

I do wonder how many straight TWAW wokebeards would look at that picture and find it arousing 🤨 Suspect it’s a number between 0 and 1

I never knew EC was trans (my DD - non-binary) has seen her live I’m sure (I didn’t know what EC actually looked like to be fair). Now it figures 🙄

We can agree to disagree - and this is why it’s complex as there’s not a single view. I know how high suicide rates are in these young people so I won’t be a part of that. Unless I closely know the child, I’ll take the steer from the parent/teen for this reason.

This is what Chase Strangio said about suicide rates in trans people during a legal case (Strangio is a trans identified woman who is a TRA.)

[T]here is no evidence in some — in the studies that this treatment reduces completed suicide. And the reason for that is completed suicide, thankfully and admittedly, is rare and we’re talking about a very small population of individuals with studies that don’t necessarily have completed suicides within them.[8]

https://journals.law.harvard.edu/jlpp/suicide-suicidality-and-pediatric-medical-transition-in-united-states-v-skrmetti-and-beyond/

I hope this is not feeling like a pile on, but as you seem a thoughtful person, perhaps you could consider this? It may be polite and kind to use the pronouns someone wants you to use, but it may be that you are being unkind to their parents or siblings. I have told family members that they are free to call my son whatever they choose to call him, but that I want them to understand how painful it is for us when they call him "she", implying that we don't have a son but a daughter. It is not just the trans-identifying person who is affected by our language choices.

Even if parents have gone along with their child's wishes, they may be hiding deep mourning for the person they knew, who must not be mentioned by "deadnaming".

This is a very difficult area for people to negotiate. I do not think society has come to a balanced and reasoned position; for most of us, we have been presented with a new set of ethics entirely for the comfort of trans-identifying people. Unfortunately there is a huge amount of hidden damage, which it's not polite to mention.

Taking unsolicited dick pics to a new level, I see. Keep it classy Mr Cain.

I read the title of this thread and thought “Why would she do that?”

Then saw his photo and answered my own question… “Because he’s a man”

Many men enjoy women’s discomfort. So the less you want them to send a dick pic the more likely they are to send it.

I think these men particularly enjoy watching women tie themselves in knots to try to be comfortable with “lady diq” and being fawned over how empowered they are.

I know where you’re coming from my but rl experience is that these families haven’t decided to support their dc in this way lightly and there’s been a lot of emotional fall out. I’ve never been close enough to the family to question in the way you suggest (very close family/friends I would) so me refusing to use their chosen pronouns would be seen as aggressive and likely lose me friends.

As a parent of teens, I am keeping an open mind and learning as I go along. I think discussion is really important. Even in the last 12 months there’s been much more clarity on single sex toilets. For me that’s the line - sex doesn’t change. I don’t have pronouns on my email because I literally don’t care if someone I’m emailing thinks I’m male or female but those in the office that do are the Janes and Peters -the ones with traditional sex names so it’s bloody obvious. Mine is less obvious but as long as they reply to my email what does my gender have to do with it?

I too am a parent of a teen and have had at least 5 friends who have been through their teenagers declaring they are transgender.

Not one of these parents used their child’s demanded pronouns and this is after getting guidance from psychologists experienced in dealing with gender dysphoria. Two teens were non binary and their parents still used correct sex language. And this doesn’t include the parents i don’t know of the other friends of my teen that had declared gender identities.

I have watched and discussed this with these parents over the past 6 years, including now that those teens are now either desisted or one has a new gender identities to the first ones. There are different approaches and Dr Hilary Cass was very clear that affirming pronouns in children not a neutral act and can lead to those children remaining in a situation they no longer wish to be in.

What each of those teens have is very poor overall mental health. While it is understandable to not wish to cause deterioration of mental health in these teens, it is important to not misuse suicide as a reason to change the language used for female and male people. The studies are quite clear that suicide risk is the same as other people with the same other comorbid mental health issues.

The narrative offered by trans activists is that any challenge to identity is going to detrimentally affect mental health.

This needs to be carefully considered and discussed.

Especially given the evidence that shows that 'transitioning' and 'gender affirming care' are leading to worse outcomes in the medium to long term.

Children demand many things that may give them short term 'euphoria', but lead to long term harm.

The whole subject needs looking at from an evidence based, long term viewpoint.

My own view is that children demand impossible things sometimes because they are desperately seeking a 'no'. A child that feels unsafe will actively seek boundaries. A child making demands that are not in their best interests may actually looking for an adult care giver to step in and say 'no'. Affirming this kind of distress may actually be literally the worst possible choice.

I'm not dismissing how difficult and complex this can be.

My point was, evidence suggests mis-sexing children may in fact worsen outcomes.

I understand your concerns, and reasoning. This is what we have been led to believe by trans activists.

Cass, plus evidence of several studies, suggests the inverse.

I totally agree. If someone’s internal thoughts were not based on reality, on any other topic (age/ race/ species/ weight for example), we would not be encouraging parents to go along with the delusion.

There is an element of emotional manipulation in a group who has effectively weaponised suicide to convince society that it is kind to affirm a gender identity as if it is materially real when it comes to sex based provisions and language.

After seeing these families go through this experience I know how conflicting all the messaging is.

I was told by one of the parents who was a medical practitioner herself and had done a huge amount of reading and discussing it with clinicians etc, that it is unhelpful for other adults to affirm the gender identity thinking it was kind and the best approach was avoiding using affirming language and to treat the name change as being a nickname. I was told the very same thing by another of the mothers. She told me just how hard it was to maintain a neutral approach when well meaning adults used affirming language and how ingrained it had now become in her daughter because of that language usage.

But I’m not sure causing a divide between the adults supporting a young person and me is the best approach. It depends on your relationship with the people and is more nuanced. My friend’s daughter has a £10k vagina… I just smile politely because my inside thoughts would not be welcome (I don’t feel a surgically built hole is the same as a vagina - me saying this in those situations just wouldn’t be helpful).